Spoiler! DONT HATE ME! I liked FC

[Lynx]

^^
As a publicity stunt, it may have succeded. I guess that it can attract people who normally don't read the Voyager Relaunch books.

But what will happen in the long run? Will those who might have gotten a kick out of Janeway's death or those who just were curious remain and continue to buy the books? Not to mention those who will definitely turn their backs to the books and will stick to fan-fiction instead. It can be very hard to bring back former loyal fans who have lost their interest.

I guess it can be the same as happened to a rather well-nown rock band who changed their style to attract new fans. It became a setback for them since the loyal fanbase hated the new style and abandoned the band while the new fans they wanted to attract only stayed for a while, then moved on to other things. Later on, the band tried to bring back their old fans by reverting to their old style but it was too late.

 

[Frazzled]

Wish I could agree with you Lynx, I was gutted that they killed Janeway and wish they'd say 'sorry fans, we made a huge mistake' and bring her back!! but all the Amazon reviews seem to say 'we're sad about Janeway but the writing is so good and the other characters so real for the first time in ages that we love it'.

Still haven't decided whether to buy it, if I do I reserve the right to think of it as non canon in my head at least, I'm not deluding myself that Paramount will ever agree with me but they're not going to do anything else on screen anyway. IMHO the other relaunch books were so rubbish and improbable (no offence to Christie Golden I love her writing just not what happened ... was it her decision or other people's?) that I've been reading fanfic instead, searching out alternate universes for my favourite crew.

 

[Defcon]

if I do I reserve the right to think of it as non canon in my head at least, I'm not deluding myself that Paramount will ever agree with me but they're not going to do anything else on screen anyway.

Actually Paramount will agree with you on that, because no book is canon.

 

[Lynx]

Wish I could agree with you Lynx, I was gutted that they killed Janeway and wish they'd say 'sorry fans, we made a huge mistake' and bring her back!! but all the Amazon reviews seem to say 'we're sad about Janeway but the writing is so good and the other characters so real for the first time in ages that we love it'.

Still haven't decided whether to buy it, if I do I reserve the right to think of it as non canon in my head at least, I'm not deluding myself that Paramount will ever agree with me but they're not going to do anything else on screen anyway. IMHO the other relaunch books were so rubbish and improbable (no offence to Christie Golden I love her writing just not what happened ... was it her decision or other people's?) that I've been reading fanfic instead, searching out alternate universes for my favourite crew.

I used to regard the books as canon and as the ongoing story of the Voyager crew because as I saw it then, "it's better with a bad relaunch than no relaunch at all".

But due to the current direction of PocketBooks, I've changed my mind about that. Time will tell if I will buy any more Star trek books. As long as Janeway is killed off and with the current direction of the books, I don't care about them anymore.

I'll stick to season 1-3 on DVD and the 15 first Voyager books. That, plus TNG on DVD and occasional TOS and DS9 episodes on video tapes as well as some other Star trek fact books is enough to keep my interest for Star Trek alive. If I absolutely need a new story to read, then I can write it myself.

You're right about Paramount. There will be no more Voyager on the screen. As for Christie Golden, I wasn't too happy with the relaunch books but they were better than what we got now. What I liked with Golden was that she did seem to have a lot of compassion for the characters. Besides that, "The Murdered Sun" and "Marooned" were excellent books.

As for Kirsten Beyer, I've always regarded her as a good author which may be a reason for my dissapointment when it comes to her involvment in the current books. However, I must state that neither Kirsten Beyer, nor Peter David decided to kill of Janeway. It was an editorial decision.

 

[Octavia]

However, I must state that neither Kirsten Beyer, nor Peter David decided to kill of Janeway. It was an editorial decision.

Well, the decision to write dead-Janeway was theirs, not the editors. Responsibility is 50-50 on this one, to my mind.

 

[kimc]

However, I must state that neither Kirsten Beyer, nor Peter David decided to kill of Janeway. It was an editorial decision.

Well, the decision to write dead-Janeway was theirs, not the editors. Responsibility is 50-50 on this one, to my mind.

True but as others have already mentioned a paycheck is a paycheck.

I make no secret of the fact I'm pissed off by Janeway's death but again that was an editorial decision and I don't hold the writers personally responsible. Mind you, I would debate either of them for saying it's a good idea and I have no intention of reading the books but it's not personal.

 

[Octavia]

^Sure, money is nice. But whether or not an author is writing something for love or money, I find it a lot easier to accept and respect "I made a choice to write X for love/money/good storydom, and I'm responsible for what I've written" than I do to accept and respect "I made a choice to write X for love/money/good storydom, but X is not my fault!"

I mean, come on. If an author's words killed Janeway, that author had a part in killing her, and palming off all the responsibility on someone else is bollocks.

 

[kimc]

^Sure, money is nice. But whether or not an author is writing something for love or money, I find it a lot easier to accept "I made a choice to write X for love/money, and I'm responsible for what I've written" than I do to accept "I made a choice to write X for love/money, but X is not my fault!"

Okay, I think I see your point. PAD may not have made the decision to do it but he should take responsibility for the fact that he did and how he did it rather than complain that people are complaining?

 

[Octavia]

Okay, I think I see your point. PAD may not have made the decision to do it but he should take responsibility for the fact that he did and how he did it rather than complain that people are complaining?

Yeah, pretty much. It just seems a bit unfair to me - he freely chose to do X, and then he did X, but when some people don't like it X is all someone else's fault?

I can't say I agree with Margaret Clark's ideas on this one, but she didn't do it by herself.

 

[Brit]

I think one point thought needs to be made, if the writers were under contract they may have had no choice but the write the books the editor wanted written. I don't know if contracts were involved, but it is possible.

Brit

 

[Octavia]

I think one point thought needs to be made, if the writers were under contract they may have had no choice but the write the books the editor wanted written. I don't know if contracts were involved, but it is possible.

Brit

So if (and I'm being deliberately hyperbolic for the sake of example) Margaret Clark had too many margaritas one lunchtime and instructed a Trek writer to do a story on Neelix, his harem of tribbles and all their little hairy babies, that writer would have no choice but to consent? No matter how it affects their reputation as a writer? (I'm sure no-one ever wants to be known as the author of a stupid stinker.)

I can't say that I'm that familiar with the publishing business, so this is a genuine question: what could possibly induce any writer to give over that level of control over their work, or to sign a contract saying that they will produce whatever unspecified works are required of them in the future? That seems... imprudent, at best.

 

[Brit]

I can't say that I'm that familiar with the publishing business, so this is a genuine question: what could possibly induce any writer to give over that level of control over their work, or to sign a contract saying that they will produce whatever unspecified works are required of them in the future? That seems... imprudent, at best.

It's entirely possible, a lot of actors have been saddled with the same kinds of contracts. Ones that specify jobs in the form of numbers owed.

Brit

 

[Frazzled]

I make no secret of the fact I'm pissed off by Janeway's death but again that was an editorial decision and I don't hold the writers personally responsible.

I didn't like the way Peter David killed her off at all. The idea of half the Quadrant possibly seeing her onscreen as a Borg Queen and killing all those people wasn't nice. However since she was already dead I like the idea that Kirsten Beyer explained some of the reasons why and apparently laid her to rest in a more dignified fashion generally - if I read Full circle it will be for that.

Similarly Beyer IMHO did a good job of clearing up other people's messes in Isabo's shirt, after all that unfulfilled hinting onscreen and the ridiculous way Resolutions ended with no follow up she laid the J/C thing to rest properly.

 

[Steve Roby]

I think one point thought needs to be made, if the writers were under contract they may have had no choice but the write the books the editor wanted written. I don't know if contracts were involved, but it is possible.

Here's how it works at Pocket these days for series like the relaunches that have a lot of book to book continuity. The editor is the showrunner who decides where things are going and what the major developments are. The editor hires writers to flesh out those developments, and yes, of course there are contracts, and the writer is expected to deliver what's been discussed with the editor. Then CBS Licensing has to give the green light to the book. It's a bit more complicated than that, but that should give you the general idea.

If you're wondering whether writers have ongoing contracts and are assigned books by the editors that they can't turn down... no. Not even close. They'll sign a contract for a book, or a trilogy, once the proposals have been approved, but they aren't sitting there waiting to be assigned something they have to do because they're under contract the way movie stars were in the 1940s.

Now, as for Full Circle: it's one of the best Voyager novels I've read, and I've read all the Pocket Voyager novels. (I stopped reading fanfic years ago.) All the main characters who made it back to the Alpha Quadrant have roles to play. B'Elanna and Tom get a lot of the spotlight in the first half because of a storyline from the previous books, and Chakotay gets a lot in the second half. You think you're upset about Janeway's death? Chakotay goes through hell. If you think he was dull and flat on TV, he's way more raw and real here. If you liked the J/C pairing, and especially if you liked the short story "Isabo's Shirt," it's that much more devastating. Everyone is real and believable here, and the Janeway who's alive in part of the book and in Chakotay's memories is everything that was best about her.

I never particularly wanted Janeway to be killed off, and when I read Before Dishonor, I didn't believe she had been killed off, thanks to the great big Q escape clause. But damn if it didn't make one hell of a wrenching and emotional story possible. Your loss if you don't give it a chance.

 

[BORU]

Now, as for Full Circle: it's one of the best Voyager novels I've read, and I've read all the Pocket Voyager novels. (I stopped reading fanfic years ago.) All the main characters who made it back to the Alpha Quadrant have roles to play. B'Elanna and Tom get a lot of the spotlight in the first half because of a storyline from the previous books, and Chakotay gets a lot in the second half. You think you're upset about Janeway's death? Chakotay goes through hell. If you think he was dull and flat on TV, he's way more raw and real here. If you liked the J/C pairing, and especially if you liked the short story "Isabo's Shirt," it's that much more devastating. Everyone is real and believable here, and the Janeway who's alive in part of the book and in Chakotay's memories is everything that was best about her.

I never particularly wanted Janeway to be killed off, and when I read Before Dishonor, I didn't believe she had been killed off, thanks to the great big Q escape clause. But damn if it didn't make one hell of a wrenching and emotional story possible. Your loss if you don't give it a chance.

Can I get an amen?

This was some of the best gut wrenching sorrow that has every been written in a Trek book IMO.

I'm in the wee group that never saw Chuckles as dull or flat just under used. Much like quite a few of the other characters he suffered at the hands of the Clown College. Matter of fact from the first time I saw him on the screen I sat up and went "Well Hello there!" Now granted that had a lot to do with Beltran but I honestly had high hopes or the character.

I like seeing him through other authors eyes and I think she did a great job showing this man's grief especially how Chuckles would grieve for something that he though was finally within reach only to have it lost forever.

This is the Kathryn I wanted to see, this is the Kathryn I loved and I got to see her again through him.

She, KB, worked it and it was all good.

 

[Lynx]

I think one point thought needs to be made, if the writers were under contract they may have had no choice but the write the books the editor wanted written. I don't know if contracts were involved, but it is possible.

Brit

So if (and I'm being deliberately hyperbolic for the sake of example) Margaret Clark had too many margaritas one lunchtime and instructed a Trek writer to do a story on Neelix, his harem of tribbles and all their little hairy babies, that writer would have no choice but to consent? No matter how it affects their reputation as a writer? (I'm sure no-one ever wants to be known as the author of a stupid stinker.)

I can't say that I'm that familiar with the publishing business, so this is a genuine question: what could possibly induce any writer to give over that level of control over their work, or to sign a contract saying that they will produce whatever unspecified works are required of them in the future? That seems... imprudent, at best.

Since I'm a fan fiction-writer myself and since I've also have been working for magazines and a company which were in the advertising business, I can tell you one thing.

I would never let anyone order me to kill off any of my characters!

If I had a chance to get my stories published but the terms for it would be that I had to kill off one or two of my characters, then I would refuse, telling them that this character here and that character there are important for my stories and I can't do that.

If they still should insist, I would tell them where to put their suggestions and where to go.

In that case I would happily start to write stories about other things for other companies.


BORU wrote:

Can I get an amen?

This was some of the best gut wrenching sorrow that has every been written in a Trek book IMO.

I'm in the wee group that never saw Chuckles as dull or flat just under used. Much like quite a few of the other characters he suffered at the hands of the Clown College. Matter of fact from the first time I saw him on the screen I sat up and went "Well Hello there!" Now granted that had a lot to do with Beltran but I honestly had high hopes or the character.

I like seeing him through other authors eyes and I think she did a great job showing this man's grief especially how Chuckles would grieve for something that he though was finally within reach only to have it lost forever.

This is the Kathryn I wanted to see, this is the Kathryn I loved and I got to see her again through him.

She, KB, worked it and it was all good.

Sorry, my friend. No amen from me.

I don't have to read the story for knowing that I would hate it.

OK, it may be good written and it may have contained better treatment of the characters than what the Clown College used to make up. But when the outcome of it is sheer character destruction and the unnecessary annihilation of one of Star Trek's best characters, then you can count me out.

 

[SStar]

BORU wrote:

This is the Kathryn I wanted to see, this is the Kathryn I loved and I got to see her again through him.

She, KB, worked it and it was all good.

But when the outcome of it is sheer character destruction and the unnecessary annihilation of one of Star Trek's best characters, then you can count me out.

Lynx, I'm sure my words will have no impact on your own opinion but I must say that the 'sheer character destruction' claim you make, without having read Full Circle by the way, is absolutely and utterly incorrect.

As BORU has pointed out and as is repeated by many a person in the Full Circle (and the ever-repeating bring back Janeway) threads, on Amazon.com and one I hold myself, the Kirsten Beyer has given us, Star Trek fans, one of the most honest and true characterisations of Kathryn Janeway.

You don't want to read the book and express that, fine. However, making assertions of what happens / character analysis etc. without reading Full Circle is not on.

 

[Brit]

BORU wrote:

This is the Kathryn I wanted to see, this is the Kathryn I loved and I got to see her again through him.

She, KB, worked it and it was all good.

But when the outcome of it is sheer character destruction and the unnecessary annihilation of one of Star Trek's best characters, then you can count me out.

Lynx, I'm sure my words will have no impact on your own opinion but I must say that the 'sheer character destruction' claim you make, without having read Full Circle by the way, is absolutely and utterly incorrect.

As BORU has pointed out and as is repeated by many a person in the Full Circle (and the ever-repeating bring back Janeway) threads, on Amazon.com and one I hold myself, the Kirsten Beyer has given us, Star Trek fans, one of the most honest and true characterisations of Kathryn Janeway.

You don't want to read the book and express that, fine. However, making assertions of what happens / character analysis etc. without reading Full Circle is not on.

I think that the real point for a lot of Janeway fans (and I dare say most, some are reading "Full Circle" and most are not) is that Picard fans and Sisko fans will have other stories, Picard and Crusher are having a child. Sisko is living with Kasidy and their child.

Janeway fans are being denied this. We have been given one book, with a very unsatisfactory ending and it doesn't matter if it was the best characterization or that it may be the best Trek novel every written. She is still dead at the end. There will be no beautiful dark children for her no matter how much many of us long for them.

She has sex with Chakotay once, probably the only sex she has had in ten years and then she is dead, no hope for more. No hope for the happy ending with Chakotay. And the point is, that is very important for a lot of people.

I know enough about books to know that the majority of books of all kinds sold have the illusion of a happy ending. If you book doesn't have that, there are a lot of readers that will not read it. It's like asking mystery lovers to read mysteries that do not solve the mystery.

If the illusion of a happy ending isn't important, then you would be ok. Just don't assume that everyone else will not mind either. There is a large group of Janeway fans that are not happy. They mostly left boards like the BBS where negative views of Janeway are the norm, we were wrong to do that because it gave outsiders the idea that there were no Janeway fans, and that no one would care if Janeway was the one to die.

It's an erroneous assumption and Pocket Books was wrong to take that approach and One Last Book isn't going to appease anyone.

Brit

 

[SStar]

Brit, I really do get that and agree with most of what you say in your first four paragraphs (well apart from the J/C since I never liked that but I roll with the punches! ) I think it is a shame there are currently no plans to develop Janeway's story further, as Sisko or Picard's story is, but that wasn't my point.

I do absolutely believe that having emotions and opinions on events / books should be kept separate from making statements about a book's contents / characterisations etc if you haven't read that book. Usually because a lot of the time, the statement will be wrong.

My only real point of disagreement is that somehow outsiders / Pocket Books thought it was okay to off Janeway because her fans weren't so active on boards. I doubt it would have really entered their thoughts, but I do have my business hat on when I say this. I think some of the writers in the TrekLit boards may have explained this point so I won't continue in case I recall incorrectly.

 

[Lynx]

BORU wrote:

This is the Kathryn I wanted to see, this is the Kathryn I loved and I got to see her again through him.

She, KB, worked it and it was all good.

But when the outcome of it is sheer character destruction and the unnecessary annihilation of one of Star Trek's best characters, then you can count me out.

Lynx, I'm sure my words will have no impact on your own opinion but I must say that the 'sheer character destruction' claim you make, without having read Full Circle by the way, is absolutely and utterly incorrect.

As BORU has pointed out and as is repeated by many a person in the Full Circle (and the ever-repeating bring back Janeway) threads, on Amazon.com and one I hold myself, the Kirsten Beyer has given us, Star Trek fans, one of the most honest and true characterisations of Kathryn Janeway.

You don't want to read the book and express that, fine. However, making assertions of what happens / character analysis etc. without reading Full Circle is not on.

Since I haven't read the book, I haven't any insight in all details in it and I do find it believable that you and BORU are absolutely right when you state that the book contents one of the most honest and true characterisations of Janeway.

But as I see it, all of that is destroyed when the final outcome of all that is the annihilation of the character.

Let me put it this way: What's the point in building the worlds most beautiful building and then blow it to pieces?

And the worst thing is that the person who have done that will not be remembered for building the worlds most beautiful building but for the destruction of it.