Spoilers So, what do we think of Season 2 now that it's done?

[Lord Garth]

This isn't worth it. I had a whole long post that I typed, but... not today.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

This isn't worth it. I had a whole long post that I typed, but... not today.

Yearp. Same here.

 

[Uhura's Song]

Terry Matalas just did a 90 minute interview with Inglorious Trekspert, and he sheds some light on why Season 2 ultimately was uneven. What they envisioned for the season and what ulimtely got filmed were very different and scaled back. Most of it had to do with COVID and the challenges that presented. PIC only had two standing sets when production for season two began (La Serena and Picard's study): unlike SNW and DIS which had far more standing sets in place and were able to produce more "normal" seasons. Because of the health restrictions in place in LA, building new sets would take much longer (all the Stargazer scenes were filmed last because it took six months to build those sets) than they had to get filming underway so they had to film most of the season on location which is why the ultimately decided to go with time travel so they didn't have to make LA look like the 25th century. Additionally (those Matalas says it far more diplomatically than I do), CBS was concerned about Stewart's age and the possibility of him getting infected, which limited the number of actors they were allowed to use and why most of the cast were paired off into groups of two for much of early filming (all the group scenes were filmed towards the end of the season).

Matalas knew that some fans would not be happy with the direction of season 2 which is why season 3 was planned to be a starship bound, and starfleet heavy, season.

Good post. Much appreciated.

I think we as viewers (and reviewers) don't know, or cannot know, the countless bumps that PIC/DISCO encountered during filming due to COVID. Roads that could not be taken. We should take that into account when grading the seasons. Especially the live action shows. LD & PRO do not have those problems and have been very good IMHO.


Still, I thought the S2 opened very strongly and closed strong (for the most part). I enjoyed it.

 

[Uhura's Song]

I caanot recall if I have posted this here or not yet, but here are the top streaming shows for March & April.

March:

https://www.businessinsider.com/top...rd-2022-4?op=1#3-star-trek-picard-paramount-7

Picard 3rd (of 9). Rotten Tomatoes score 90%.

Show, RTS, Times more in demand than avg
9. Our Flag Means Death, 90%, 27.1
8. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, 89%, 27.2
7. Ted Lasso, 94%, 27.6
6. Titans, 86%, 28.2
5. The Witcher, 81%, 28.6
4. The Book of Boba Fett, 68%, 29.0
3. Star Trek: Picard, 90%, 32.0
2. Stranger Things 4: 93%, 35.1
1. The Mandalorian, 93%, 36.6

Only the Mandalorian & Stranger Things beat Picard. Only those 2 plus Ted Lasso had better RT scores.

I'd say that was pretty good.

 

[Uhura's Song]

April:

Picard 6th. RT score dipped to 86%.

9. Young Justice, 95%, 24.9
8. Titans, 86%, 26.0
7. The Witcher, 81%, 27.2
6. Star Trek: Picard, 86%, 31.4
5. The Mandalorian, 93%, 34.2
4. Moon Knight, 87%, 34.2
3. Our Flag Means Death, 91%, 38.9
2. Bridgerton, 82%, 39.5
1. Stranger Things 4, 93%, 47.8


https://www.businessinsider.com/top...on-2022-5?op=1#6-star-trek-picard-paramount-4

 

[Uhura's Song]

May. Last episode aired May 5th. 9th is a drop, but considering only 1 new episode aired in May, pretty good.

9. Star Trek: Picard, 86%, 27.3
8. Bridgerton 82%, 28.5
7. Wandavision, 91%, 28.6
6. Ozark, 82%, 29.6
5. Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, 98%, 30.9
4. Moon Knight, 86%, 32.3
3. Our Flag Means Death, 91%, 34.6
2. The Mandalorian, 93%, 37.4
1. Stranger Things, 92%, 83.3

 

[Uhura's Song]

All in all, it is hard to describe Picard as a failure with those viewership numbers (and good RT scores).

I get it had issues, and was not everyone's cup of tea, but describing it as some kind of failure/terrible show is bonkers.

 

[STEPhon IT]

The first season did an excellent job of picking up the pieces from "All Good Things" (the Vineyard, Picard's illness), First Contact (Picard's unresolved feelings about the Borg), Nemesis (Data's death), and 24th Century side of Star Trek (2009) that we only saw glimpses of (the destruction of Romulus).

The second season looked at all the things TNG never did and did them. Namely: an evil version of the Federation, Picard going back to Present Day, trying to make sense of the mixed messages between his mother ("Where No One Has Gone Before") and father ("Family" and "Tapestry"), and addressing why Picard never found True Love, then having Q guide him through this. When they went back to Present Day, they put all the unintentional world building that had been done in every episode and movie from previous series where they want back into the past and weaved them together: Guinan, the Watchers, Vulcans on Earth, the Space Program, and mixed in some Social Commentary on Our World, like through ICE. I think they had all kinds of ideas and they wanted to do all kinds of things, and there's a good recipe that wants to emerge from a whole bunch of ingredients.

I'll watch PIC Season 2 when I feel like watching Picard but don't want to see it pick up the pieces from before (Season 1) and don't feel like seeing One Extra-Long TNG Movie (Season 3). Picard Season 2 is the season that ties the least to TNG and thus feels the most like Picard as Picard, strange as it is to say. It's nowhere near as heavy and weighty as Season 1, so Season 2 is something I'd be more likely to feel like I'm in the mood to watch. And I enjoy a lot of the actors playing different characters. If having the same actors play their ancestors suffers from Back to the Future Syndrome, then so be it. I know what it is now, I know what to expect, so I can just watch it.

I don't know how much of that makes sense to anyone else, but that's my opinion of Season 2 now that I've had more time to think about it.

I think both seasons feel the same to me, and wouldn't mind watching any of them, the series looks expensive to make and despite the mixed bag from every episode its still a fun, dumb adventure show. It sets the dilemma up and off to the finish line, characters could get more background and development but it is saga based and the ride is satisfying. A plus for me are these stories are not condescending and anyone could watch these things without doing homework. Romulans are set up to have bumpy heads and others have nothing at all and NOT ONE character especially the doctor doesn't have an out of character moment and wince and make stupid faces questioning why one Romulan look different from the other. No bogus virus things which complicates the matter even more than the explanation. I found this with the Borg as well, improvements never seem to draw attention to itself I can watch it without figuring why the hell this was done.

One more thing I appreciated, not only from PICARD, but from the other shows, it looks as if the showrunners are listening to the criticisms, just the ones which doesn't appear to make disrespectful attempts to rewrite TOS or TNG. No more going back to alter the well, just tell their stories giving me the impression these are new characters and THEY ARE NOT FROM TOS nor TNG, a new universe where these characters have new beginnings and of course new endings. STRANGE's Pike will not share the same fate as my Christopher Pike in the series I love TOS, and this Picard will have something special for him like my Picard had in TNG. Separate universes with separate fates, the showrunners are doing a decent job with the talents they have.

 

[KennyB]

I've defended Picard season 1. I found it mostly inoffensive and as an overall product it was pretty good. It's not TNG, it's not classic Star Trek, but it was alright.

But season 2, geeze laweeze. One nice thing I can say is that it wasn't bad in the Discovery sense where it irritates me. Picard season 2 was bad in a laughable sense. It was so bad in a lot of areas I couldn't keep a straight face. So kudos to them in that regard.

The first few episodes of s2 were alright. I rather enjoyed them. It wasn't until episode 5 or so where things got weird... So we're randomly dealing with Picard Mommy and Daddy issues? We spent way too much time on that and it felt really out of place. "What's the mystery of Picard's Mom and Dad?" It reminds me of the writers room for season 7 of TNG where they were running low on ideas and just threw out suggestions about character's siblings. Speaking of siblings, where's Picard's brother?

I'd wouldn't shed a tear if they never do a time travel plot ever again. Borg queen, need I say more? Presumably there was a Borg queen in the past, so there would've been the future Borg queen and the present Borg queen. What a huge threat to the timeline. It's an incalculable threat to the timeline and they're all alright with it. What made me laugh was when Q beamed them back to the present where the Borg queen was taking over the ship. Picard disengages the self destruct, because it turns out the Borg queen is Agnes and has had '400 years to think about this song.'

So... does that mean everything that happened in TNG and Voyager played out exactly the same except instead of the original Borg queen it was half Agnes assimilating people and blowing shit up? And now all of a sudden she's good? Dang, I guess that's the trouble you run into when you want to make this grand plotline, but run up against a bunch of lore getting in the way.

Then there's the philosophic element to this too. The queen decides to stop being evil when Agnes takes 2 minutes to say, "Ever think of not being authoritarian? You don't really want perfection, you're just lonely and you're destructive because you're lonely!" The queen, "Oh, dang, I never thought of that. Wow, you're right!"

Hahaha, oh man, the Borg worked as a contrast to the Federation, because the Borg took socialism too far. You don't have to dial back the Borg to say, "Hey, see, socialism can work if you're just not a dictator about it!" The Federation already represented that ideal. Cooperation for the greatest prosperity should be done voluntarily and that authoritarian rule towards perfection is inherently flawed.

Personally, I think the vision of the Federation is not realistic and can be summed up in a look at game B philosophy. However, I do believe it's a romantic ideal and a good lesson to teach children for the overall trust of a society when you look at game theory. Without going too far down that rabbit hole, it was pretty humorous how sloppily they changed the Borg and hurts the overall philosophy of the show.

One last Borg paragraph. You also have the Borg queen fueled from endorphins and Agnes fueled by cortisol? Hahaha, wtf? Is that supposed to be an allusion to the id and super ego where the id is fueled by happiness and the super ego fueled by sadness and stress? Alright... some people have anxiety and the only thing they have to go on is cortisol to achieve their goals, I guess. I mean, I get how the symbolism is pertinent to today's culture... it's just kind of bizarre.

Onto the ICE portion of the show. I didn't like the heavy handed black and white moralizing of ICE. I know people who are ICE agents and they're not evil people. They also know Spanish. One of my friends is Mexican-American, works for ICE, and guess what? He speaks Spanish well. I prefer the way TNG discussed social topics and nuance of political and philosophic issues. It's something that SNW looks to be doing. I really don't like this black and white one sided morality that Picard and DS9 throw at us.

Not a fan of young Guinan. There's a lot of criticism I've seen of her, from the bar name to her not remembering Picard. That's all fair criticism. What I didn't like was her attitude. That's not the way Guinan talks about things. She had an even disposition in the late 1800's, even in regards to racism and slavery, but in the 2020's she's overwhelmed? The showrunners made a decision to not use Whoopi Goldberg as young Guinan or use de-aging CGI on her and I don't believe that was simply due to cost savings measures.

I suppose that's a nitpick in continuity and personal preference mostly. To get down to the point succinctly, I don't like the narrative that black people are held back by a modern day racism. I think it's largely untrue and a counter productive way to look at the world. The new ways people want to use the term 'racism' water down it's meaning in a way that's divisive, and conflates the real issues facing the black community that need to be fixed. I'm sure that's an unpopular opinion and we could write a book on our disagreements, so I'll just leave it at that.

Allen, first welcome to the board. Next, maybe take some time to familiarize yourself to the board and how things work. Every idea doesn’t need its own post. Most fit neatly into an established post. I googled you and did not see anything that on name recognition alone would warrant your opinion needing its own thread.

EDIT: And just like that I found a thread already talking about EXACTLY what your post was about! #WOOOOSH #MERGED

 

[The Old Mixer]

Good post. Much appreciated.

I think we as viewers (and reviewers) don't know, or cannot know, the countless bumps that PIC/DISCO encountered during filming due to COVID. Roads that could not be taken. We should take that into account when grading the seasons. Especially the live action shows. LD & PRO do not have those problems and have been very good IMHO.


Still, I thought the S2 opened very strongly and closed strong (for the most part). I enjoyed it.

I caanot recall if I have posted this here or not yet, but here are the top streaming shows for March & April.

March:

https://www.businessinsider.com/top...rd-2022-4?op=1#3-star-trek-picard-paramount-7

Picard 3rd (of 9). Rotten Tomatoes score 90%.

Show, RTS, Times more in demand than avg
9. Our Flag Means Death, 90%, 27.1
8. The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, 89%, 27.2
7. Ted Lasso, 94%, 27.6
6. Titans, 86%, 28.2
5. The Witcher, 81%, 28.6
4. The Book of Boba Fett, 68%, 29.0
3. Star Trek: Picard, 90%, 32.0
2. Stranger Things 4: 93%, 35.1
1. The Mandalorian, 93%, 36.6

Only the Mandalorian & Stranger Things beat Picard. Only those 2 plus Ted Lasso had better RT scores.

I'd say that was pretty good.

April:

Picard 6th. RT score dipped to 86%.

9. Young Justice, 95%, 24.9
8. Titans, 86%, 26.0
7. The Witcher, 81%, 27.2
6. Star Trek: Picard, 86%, 31.4
5. The Mandalorian, 93%, 34.2
4. Moon Knight, 87%, 34.2
3. Our Flag Means Death, 91%, 38.9
2. Bridgerton, 82%, 39.5
1. Stranger Things 4, 93%, 47.8


https://www.businessinsider.com/top...on-2022-5?op=1#6-star-trek-picard-paramount-4

May. Last episode aired May 5th. 9th is a drop, but considering only 1 new episode aired in May, pretty good.

9. Star Trek: Picard, 86%, 27.3
8. Bridgerton 82%, 28.5
7. Wandavision, 91%, 28.6
6. Ozark, 82%, 29.6
5. Star Trek: Strange New Worlds, 98%, 30.9
4. Moon Knight, 86%, 32.3
3. Our Flag Means Death, 91%, 34.6
2. The Mandalorian, 93%, 37.4
1. Stranger Things, 92%, 83.3

All in all, it is hard to describe Picard as a failure with those viewership numbers (and good RT scores).

I get it had issues, and was not everyone's cup of tea, but describing it as some kind of failure/terrible show is bonkers.

Please don't post five times in a row. The usual limit is two. Edit an existing post or wait for somebody else to chime in. Thanks.

 

[TigerShart_RT]

I am sorry but the title of the show is Picard yet he does almost nothing, I realize as we all are getting old but still have him more involved in the show other than simple rhetoric. I am only a few episodes into season 2 but my gripes are mounting up. Who wrote such bad scripts? They do not have enough energy to keep someone alive or to heat the ship for warmth but have enough to engage a cloaking device? Absurd episode. Can not take a phaser in the past but a 23 century tricorder is ok? I am in hopes it gets better. Star Trek Discovery is well written, The newest Enterprise with Pike in strange new worlds is excellent but Picard is a little league team compared to world series champs to the other two!

 

[Dukhat]

So you created an account here just to bitch about the Picard show for your very first post? How about, ‘Hi, I’m TigerShart_RT, and it’s a privilege to join this forum and be part of the group’ ?

 

[Danja]

I am sorry but the title of the show is Picard yet he does almost nothing, I realize as we all are getting old but still have him more involved in the show other than simple rhetoric.

You've never heard of the "Picard speech"?

That's his thing mostly.

 

[Kor]

I'm just getting started with season 2, finally. Picard seems to notice something amiss with his familiar old frenemy Q, even making an observation that he isn't well. I'm curious to see how that will turn out for Q's character.

Kor

 

[Richard S. Ta]

The first season did an excellent job of picking up the pieces from "All Good Things" (the Vineyard, Picard's illness), First Contact (Picard's unresolved feelings about the Borg), Nemesis (Data's death), and 24th Century side of Star Trek (2009) that we only saw glimpses of (the destruction of Romulus).

The second season looked at all the things TNG never did and did them. Namely: an evil version of the Federation, Picard going back to Present Day, trying to make sense of the mixed messages between his mother ("Where No One Has Gone Before") and father ("Family" and "Tapestry"), and addressing why Picard never found True Love, then having Q guide him through this. When they went back to Present Day, they put all the unintentional world building that had been done in every episode and movie from previous series where they want back into the past and weaved them together: Guinan, the Watchers, Vulcans on Earth, the Space Program, and mixed in some Social Commentary on Our World, like through ICE. I think they had all kinds of ideas and they wanted to do all kinds of things, and there's a good recipe that wants to emerge from a whole bunch of ingredients.

I'll watch PIC Season 2 when I feel like watching Picard but don't want to see it pick up the pieces from before (Season 1) and don't feel like seeing One Extra-Long TNG Movie (Season 3). Picard Season 2 is the season that ties the least to TNG and thus feels the most like Picard as Picard, strange as it is to say. It's nowhere near as heavy and weighty as Season 1, so Season 2 is something I'd be more likely to feel like I'm in the mood to watch. And I enjoy a lot of the actors playing different characters. If having the same actors play their ancestors suffers from Back to the Future Syndrome, then so be it. I know what it is now, I know what to expect, so I can just watch it.

I don't know how much of that makes sense to anyone else, but that's my opinion of Season 2 now that I've had more time to think about it.

I think as you say there's some sense in regarding Season 2 as the middle part of a trilogy. Season 1 picks up the pieces from TNG/TNG Movies + ST09, while Season 3 is going to somehow push the story of the cast of TNG forwards.

I also agree that Season 2 is the most Picard of the two seasons we've had so far because the stakes are so personal. Season 1 is about the Federation, Nemesis/Data etc. but it's Season 2 that really digs into the mans' soul.

Like most middle parts of a trilogy also there is a sense of running on the spot in Season 2, as well as a sense of clearing the decks (Rios/Seven/Raffi) in time for the Season 3 party. Part 2 of a trilogy is always the hardest to get right I feel, with Part 1 being setup and Part 3 being resolution whilst Part 2 often just meanders around and at times tests the patience of its' audience.

The only trilogies I can think of where this isn't the case would be the original Star Wars trilogy or The Godfather.

What I do like about Season 2 is that it is at least a different beast to Season 1. Rather than indulge in TNG callbacks and nudges it indulges in Trek history generally. As well as that the Picard/Jurati/Rios parts are very strong. Where I felt it fell down was in the writing between Seven/Raffi, the weird recasting of Spiner/Briones in roles which were analogous to their Season 1 roles in a way that just didn't land at all and what finally (for me) turned out to be an utter waste of Q.

its still a fun, dumb adventure show.

How a Season long story that's about death, loss, suicide, mental illness and the terrors of modern fascism that recontextualises and advances the concept of the Borg whilst simultaneously commenting on real world 21st Century injustices can be described as dumb is beyond me.

 

[KennyB]

You guys are killing me……..unless you have a unique undiscussed topic……then join the numerous ongoing threads.

 

[The Old Mixer]

They do not have enough energy to keep someone alive or to heat the ship for warmth but have enough to engage a cloaking device?

This took me aback as well.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think as you say there's some sense in regarding Season 2 as the middle part of a trilogy. Season 1 picks up the pieces from TNG/TNG Movies + ST09, while Season 3 is going to somehow push the story of the cast of TNG forwards.

I also agree that Season 2 is the most Picard of the two seasons we've had so far because the stakes are so personal. Season 1 is about the Federation, Nemesis/Data etc. but it's Season 2 that really digs into the mans' soul.

Like most middle parts of a trilogy also there is a sense of running on the spot in Season 2, as well as a sense of clearing the decks (Rios/Seven/Raffi) in time for the Season 3 party. Part 2 of a trilogy is always the hardest to get right I feel, with Part 1 being setup and Part 3 being resolution whilst Part 2 often just meanders around and at times tests the patience of its' audience.

The only trilogies I can think of where this isn't the case would be the original Star Wars trilogy or The Godfather.

If this is the way it plays out, then -- at the end of it -- it'll all look like it was designed to go this way. It's harder to see in general when you're in the middle of it. But I suspect you're right.

My go-to trilogy, the one I know Terry Matalas is a huge fan of, is Back to the Future. I've been a fan of it since I was a kid. I'm possibly a bigger BTTF Fan than I am a Trek Fan. Part II is my favorite but I'll be the first to admit that it's the most chaotic. Maybe that informs why, decades later, I like DSC Season 1 so much; and somehow why still like PIC Season 2 as much as I do, despite being critical of it.

 

[Danja]

My go-to trilogy, the one I know Terry Matalas is a huge fan of, is Back to the Future.

Right down to bringing in Lea Thompson.

 

[fireproof78]

How a Season long story that's about death, loss, suicide, mental illness and the terrors of modern fascism that recontextualises and advances the concept of the Borg whilst simultaneously commenting on real world 21st Century injustices can be described as dumb is beyond me.

Because it's not TNG.