Siskos prejudice?

[Bad Thoughts]

Wasn't the push for this Trek by DS9 producers as well as creators about TNG and everybody always got along? And they did not want that? Culture clashes did happen.

Yes, they did deal with how people of different cultures interacted. Indeed, cross-cultural relationships can be exhausting, which is addressed in the series.

However, you made it more than that. The word is even in the title: prejudice. Heaven forfend we discuss the topic you brought up.

 

[at Quark's]

Rom - Formed a (gasp) Union!
Keiko - A botanist on a space station.

Not even just the 'good guys' ...

Gul Dukat - ousted from high office several times, only to become a raving maniac in the end,
The Pah' Wraiths , driven from the Celestial Temple at some point in the distant past
That Dominion Alpha Quadrant outpost, utterly isolated from their Gamma Quadrant reinforcements after the wormhole was shut.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Your original post was talking about the Sisko/Nog scene in "HEART OF STONE" and how you thought Sisko was prejudiced, and I think it's been very well explained by multiple people how it was not Sisko acting out of prejudice.

I don't see people rewording what you said and being able to call it systemic racism.

Uh, I don't think just because more people supported a different viewpoint than mine makes mine invalid. That's completely silly. Popular dos not always mean better. This place isn't good for civilized debate, its more about winning for certain people. So, we should just stop now, right? Ok, let's do that. Agree to disagree. *sigh*

Yes, they did deal with how people of different cultures interacted. Indeed, cross-cultural relationships can be exhausting, which is addressed in the series.

However, you made it more than that. The word is even in the title: prejudice. Heaven forfend we discuss the topic you brought up.

Please, don't put words in my mouth because a word made you uncomfortable. I didn't mean to trigger anyone at all.

Certain people are not being innocent at all. I'd say people on here have been patronizing. And it has been hard to communicate with this. And people are upset with the fact that I said prejudice. What's the difference? I am sure the writers would be scratching their heads. Is it because it is Sisko and not Garak and Dukat? I asked a question because I wanted to know other thoughts, of course. I am trying to bow out and people still seem to be upset. Should have ignored this, I guess, lol. Look Sisko is a good captain, ok? But... I think he went overboard. I mean we call Cardassian's basically racist or see them that way, right? The Bejoran's certainly do. So, I see how the hero being seen this way would cause some hurt feelings. Not my intent. See since so many people here are so much better than me i will have you all starts the threads. Though, my threads have been hit and miss. My last thread dealing with prejudism went pretty good. So... not to group everyone.

ETA: Once again, I'd like to point out, can I say it? Uh... a more favored poster said basically the same words but got a much better response Not the first time. Hum... Bias indeed.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Uh, I don't think just because more people supported a different viewpoint than mine makes mine invalid. That's completely silly. Popular dos not always mean better. This place isn't good for civilized debate, its more about winning for certain people. So, we should just stop now, right? Ok, let's do that. Agree to disagree. *sigh*


Please, don't put words in my mouth because a word made you uncomfortable. I didn't mean to trigger anyone at all.

Certain people are not being innocent at all. I'd say people on here have been patronizing. And it has been hard to communicate with this. And people are upset with the fact that I said prejudice. What's the difference? I am sure the writers would be scratching their heads. Is it because it is Sisko and not Garak and Dukat? I asked a question because I wanted to know other thoughts, of course. I am trying to bow out and people still seem to be upset. Should have ignored this, I guess, lol. Look Sisko is a good captain, ok? But... I think he went overboard. I mean we call Cardassian's basically racist or see them that way, right? The Bejoran's certainly do. So, I see how the hero being seen this way would cause some hurt feelings. Not my intent. See since so many people here are so much better than me i will have you all starts the threads. Though, my threads have been hit and miss. My last thread dealing with prejudism went pretty good. So... not to group everyone.

ETA: Once again, I'd like to point out, can I say it? Uh... a more favored poster said basically the same words but got a much better response Not the first time. Hum... Bias indeed.

Let's put this to bed. Sisko is the lead character in a franchise where the lead, even in a series that is morally complex, is the hero. The moments when his morality was called into question were all deliberate, measured to serve specific kinds of stories, never haphazardly. If the writers or Behr took things too far, they would have to answer to the studio. Such was the nature of Star Trek in the 1980s and 90s.

Second, Sisko, as the lead, is the center of attention, more often than not is the POV, and has the bulk of the dialogue throughout the series. He has the most direct interactions with almost every character. His opinions, just on the basis of how central Sisko is, will be based on experience by necessity. The characters who annoy him are shown doing things that are obviously annoying. When Sisko is annoyed that Quark and Nog insert themselves into his trip with Jake to the Gamma Quadrant, it is based on their actions. Obviously, there are differences of opinion about privacy and personal space in play, but that is not prejudice. When Nog asks why he won't commit to writing a recommendation, Sisko tells him directly that it is based on his reputation and his run-ins with the law. I suspect most of us would find that a reasonable explanation.

Third, the secondary story of this episode is designed to give one character, Nog, the opportunity to argue that he can and will grow. All Sisko does, in the overly dramatic manner of television, is lead Nog to his cathartic admission.

In the end, the deck is stacked in his favor. Sisko will look like a hero. He will be a hero.

You started this thread as an off-center take on a prominent character. Fine. I believe I have done so in the past, and I received push back. However, I did not start making accusations or calling out individual posters. It's rather arrogant to assume no one would disagree, moreso that youe would be apoplectic that we would find evidence that contradicts your interpretation. You also say that people here are either insensitive to deliberately downplaying race. As a man who has a Jewish father and a Mexican mother, I'd rather you shove off. I've lived with the specter of prejudice, and I have seen people ignored and passed over because they looked different or their behavior didn't conform to norms.

 

[Tosk]

Is it because it is Sisko and not Garak and Dukat?

The question regarding Sisko having prejudice doesn't bother me at all. Sisko does have some 'feelings' about the Ferengi.

But I'd argue it's not necessarily prejudice as that would indicate his opinion is not based on experience. Perhaps stereotyping would be slightly more accurate?

He has had dealings with Ferengi who act a certain way, and he maybe struggles a little to put that aside when he interacts with Ferengi who do not act that way.

Sisko's aggressive manner in the scene originally mentioned is still not to do with prejudice or whatever though. He is acting that way to get Nog to explain himself.

 

[Farscape One]

Uh, I don't think just because more people supported a different viewpoint than mine makes mine invalid. That's completely silly. Popular dos not always mean better. This place isn't good for civilized debate, its more about winning for certain people. So, we should just stop now, right? Ok, let's do that. Agree to disagree. *sigh*


Please, don't put words in my mouth because a word made you uncomfortable. I didn't mean to trigger anyone at all.

Certain people are not being innocent at all. I'd say people on here have been patronizing. And it has been hard to communicate with this. And people are upset with the fact that I said prejudice. What's the difference? I am sure the writers would be scratching their heads. Is it because it is Sisko and not Garak and Dukat? I asked a question because I wanted to know other thoughts, of course. I am trying to bow out and people still seem to be upset. Should have ignored this, I guess, lol. Look Sisko is a good captain, ok? But... I think he went overboard. I mean we call Cardassian's basically racist or see them that way, right? The Bejoran's certainly do. So, I see how the hero being seen this way would cause some hurt feelings. Not my intent. See since so many people here are so much better than me i will have you all starts the threads. Though, my threads have been hit and miss. My last thread dealing with prejudism went pretty good. So... not to group everyone.

ETA: Once again, I'd like to point out, can I say it? Uh... a more favored poster said basically the same words but got a much better response Not the first time. Hum... Bias indeed.

I never said your opinion was invalid. And believe me, I am quite aware that a popular opinion does not mean it's the better one. I've been the minority voice defending enough episodes to know this. It's all opinions, regardless. I just said there has been plenty of evidence mentioned and shown to indicate the opinion does not fit that scene. You still want to feel like it's Sisko being prejudiced, be my guest. I'm not here to 'win' an argument. And I most certainly disagree with your opinion.

So, yeah, we can just agree to disagree here, because clearly neither of us are going to budge.

 

[Michael]

This place isn't good for civilized debate, its more about winning for certain people.

Certain people are not being innocent at all. I'd say people on here have been patronizing. And it has been hard to communicate with this.

Such a shame that someone is forcing you to continue engaging with this place. And I’m sure the fact that you continually run into situations like these around here means something’s wrong with the other posters’ communication skills and not yours.

 

[somebuddyX]

The part when Sisko said "Get the f%% out of here you big ear having motherf$%$%" was particularly rough. Jesus. Apparently Ira didn't put that in the script though, it was all improvised.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

The part when Sisko said "Get the f%% out of here you big ear having motherf$%$%" was particularly rough. Jesus. Apparently Ira didn't put that in the script though, it was all improvised.

Joke?

Or did you see a different edit of the episode than I did?

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Joke?

Or did you see a different edit of the episode than I did?

It's in the "Talkin' 'bout Shaft" Edit.

 

[at Quark's]

^Come to think of it, why didn't they ever make a Jerry Springer - DS9 edition back in the day?

Could have been titled "You're Stealing My Nephew With Your Vile Hew-mon Propaganda!"

Complete with scenes where Quark and Sisko almost come to blows with one another, had it not been for those stewards, and with Nog in between who doesn't know whether he should attack his uncle (for not letting him go to Starfleet) or Ben (for not accepting his gold to to to Starfleet) first.

 

[somebuddyX]

Joke?

Or did you see a different edit of the episode than I did?

Don't you understand? It is real! I created it and it's real! It's real!

 

[Laughing Dragon]

The part when Sisko said "Get the f%% out of here you big ear having motherf$%$%" was particularly rough. Jesus. Apparently Ira didn't put that in the script though, it was all improvised.

He might as well have called him a big nose Jew or the yellow man. Again, I am critiquing the approach.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

The part when Sisko said "Get the f%% out of here you big ear having motherf$%$%" was particularly rough. Jesus. Apparently Ira didn't put that in the script though, it was all improvised.

Though... in all honesty, he might as well have called him a big nose Jew or the yellow man. Again, I am critiquing the approach.

Such a shame that someone is forcing you to continue engaging with this place. And I’m sure the fact that you continually run into situations like these around here means something’s wrong with the other posters’ communication skills and not yours.

Eh... I have other places I can talk about this. This is not the only "geek" forum. Plus, I refuse to be chased out for a lack of a better phrase. And as I said already not everyone dislikes me on here and there is enough good too.

 

[Tosk]

Though... in all honesty, he might as well have called him a big nose Jew or the yellow man. Again, I am critiquing the approach.

I'd be curious to see you point out when Sisko says a slur of any kind in the episode, or even implies one.

Meanwhile, I'll remind myself that Sisko is dubious about Nog's request because "The fact is, your reputation on this station leavesa lot to be desired. Your school grades are mediocre at best, andyou've had more than a few run-ins with Constable Odo."

And yet despite all that, Sisko does put his name to a letter of recommendation for a non-Federation petty criminal once they explain why they want it.

 

[Laughing Dragon]

I'd be curious to see you point out when Sisko says a slur of any kind in the episode, or even implies one.

Meanwhile, I'll remind myself that Sisko is dubious about Nog's request because "The fact is, your reputation on this station leavesa lot to be desired. Your school grades are mediocre at best, andyou've had more than a few run-ins with Constable Odo."

And yet despite all that, Sisko does put his name to a letter of recommendation for a non-Federation petty criminal once they explain why they want it.

He could have just talked it out with him without yelling and insulting him. And part of his prejudisms came through when he said he wasn't SF material. Assuming that all of a race is going to act the same is prejudism. I really don't care if he came around. Which I have not denied. It comes off as bad even if it's only my opinion. Or anyone that is talking. And Garak got less suspicion. Again, we will have to agree to disagree. My opinion will not change. Still like Sisko for the most part, though. No worries.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

He could have just talked it out with him without yelling and insulting him.

He could, but alternatively Nog could have been open about his reasons wanting to join Starfleet.

For that matter, even after he joined Starfleet, Sisko sometimes found it necessary to get angry with Nog to get him to cooperate (Homefront/Paradise Lost over Red Squad springs immediately to mind, but might not be the only example).

And part of his prejudisms came through when he said he wasn't SF material. Assuming that all of a race is going to act the same is prejudism.

Except that even Nog himself basically admits that a "typical Ferengi (male)" wouldn't be Starfleet material, and that he is because he prepared to reject key parts of Ferengi norms in order to better himself.

To reinforce the point, Sisko isn't being asked by a new Ferengi character who he has no background or history with, he's being asked by someone who he has known personally for years who has a verified criminal history. Would you call him prejudiced if he voiced concerns about a Bajoran or someone from Ezri's non-Federation planet with a similar history?

 

[kkt]

He could have just talked it out with him without yelling and insulting him. And part of his prejudisms came through when he said he wasn't SF material. Assuming that all of a race is going to act the same is prejudism. I really don't care if he came around. Which I have not denied. It comes off as bad even if it's only my opinion. Or anyone that is talking. And Garak got less suspicion. Again, we will have to agree to disagree. My opinion will not change. Still like Sisko for the most part, though. No worries.

Prejudice is pre- judging, judging based on a stereotype rather than on relevent facts. Sisko was judging based on relevant facts, and told Nog (and us in the audience) what they were: record of petty crimes and mediocre school work. If someone was applying to Annapolis today with some crimes on his record and mediocre school work, they wouldn't be admitted either, no matter what their race, religion, etc., were.

 

[Farscape One]

He could have just talked it out with him without yelling and insulting him. And part of his prejudisms came through when he said he wasn't SF material. Assuming that all of a race is going to act the same is prejudism. I really don't care if he came around. Which I have not denied. It comes off as bad even if it's only my opinion. Or anyone that is talking. And Garak got less suspicion. Again, we will have to agree to disagree. My opinion will not change. Still like Sisko for the most part, though. No worries.

Sisko mentioning to Nog in that conversation that he wasn't Starfleet material was entirely based on what Sisko and the rest of US an audience saw of Nog up to that point.

He had a multiple run-ins with the law. (In the pilot episode, he's caught for theft.) We see him not giving his best effort in school. He never showed any sense of discipline.

I thought Nog's request at the beginning was a joke or scheme when it first aired, not only for those listed reasons but Nog showed NO indication he wanted to join Starfleet. Even Jake had no idea.

And as kkt rightly pointed out, if someone with Nog's record tried to apply to Annapolis, they'd get rejected outright. They wouldn't bother to try to find out why they wanted to enlist. At least Sisko gave Nog an opportunity to explain his reasons.

And further proof Sisko was not prejuduced: in the same episode, he gives Nog a cargo inventory test to see if he was serious. And WITHOUT any supervisor around, something that even Dax objected to. (Who was also QUITE surprised at the thought of Nog in Starfleet, despite her saying she thought it would be nice to have a Ferengi in Starfleet. And as we have seen many times, Dax is anything but prejudiced toward Ferengi. She understands them, spends time with them. Plays tongo with them. But she clearly thought Nog was an odd one because of his already negative reputation on DS9.)

 

[Bad Thoughts]

If someone was applying to Annapolis today with some crimes on his record and mediocre school work, they wouldn't be admitted either, no matter what their race, religion, etc., were.

I know four kids graduating from high school just this year, three going to the Air Force Academy, one to the Naval Academy, all of whom are exemplary citizens with no criminal missteps at all. It's hard to get in, and it took years of work.