Siskos prejudice?

[Bad Thoughts]

I hope that the writers appreciate that the actors were not protective of their characters. Of course, Brooks preferred the approach in which scenes played out as a battle of ideas and the strongest emotions were on display. But all those extreme things the characters did--nearly clobbering Molly, disappearing several thousand people, participating in an assasination--would have been met with objections from the other casts. The only Visitor not wanting to be linked romantically to Dukat stands as a moment of resistance, and that came after many episodes where Kira appeared to be racist, aggressive, and angry.

 

[TheSeeker]

Probably because you saw these vapid losers' comments. Sorry... you trying to teach me a lesson in manners will never work.

This is not okay. You can disagree all you want, but calling fellow members "vapid losers" is pretty much the text book definition of flaming.

Just in case it's not clear, you have been issued an infraction for flaming. Comments to PM.

 

[Michael]

to be fair to laughing dragon, he is far from the first person to draw comparisons between the depiction of the Ferengi and anti-semitic streotypes and (possibly) being uncomfortable with it, even if unintentional and they grew past those with time and mostly good storytelling.

Oh, I’m aware of the fact that the Ferengi can be read as an unfortunate antisemitic stereotype. That doesn’t make them a stand-in for actual Jews in Star Trek, though, which is the comparison that Laughing Dragon’s comments seemed to invite. Ferengi might remind the viewer of antisemitic Jewish stereotypes, but they are actually nothing like real Jews. It might be a small distinction, but I think it’s an important one.

So Sisko trying to provoke Nog by questioning whether Ferengi custom (and specifically their widespread propensity for the pursuit of profit) is not in direct contradiction of him wanting to join Starfleet, is most definitely not the same as a hypothetical situation where Nog would be a Jewish person and Sisko would utter a harmful antisemitic narrative like Jews being greedy. At least that’s how feel about it.

It literally is. it can be/become institutional or systemic, but it is not required.

You know, I had to think about that for a moment, but I have to agree. This can be seen as a racist comment, even if just made to provoke Nog into speaking the truth. And you are of course correct: In that situation Sisko does actually wield some systemic power over Nog. Thanks for pointing that out.

Still, I think what irks me about this comparison, and why I called it out, is that I believe it’s problematic to put this on the same level (or anywhere near) some of the most horrendous real world examples of racism and antisemitism. I agree with you that both start on a personal level, but what makes them so dangerous and insidious is when they become institutionalized by law or culture. Which is why I think it’s a mistake to say what Sisko is doing in that scene is comparable to real world racism and antisemitism.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

You know, I had to think about that for a moment, but I have to agree. This can be seen as a racist comment, even if just made to provoke Nog into speaking the truth. And you are of course correct: In that situation Sisko does actually wield some systemic power over Nog. Thanks for pointing that out.

Still, I think what irks me about this comparison, and why I called it out, is that I believe it’s problematic to put this on the same level (or anywhere near) some of the most horrendous real world examples of racism and antisemitism. I agree with you that both start on a personal level, but what makes them so dangerous and insidious is when they become institutionalized by law or culture. Which is why I think it’s a mistake to say what Sisko is doing in that scene is comparable to real world racism and antisemitism.

The entire episode is driven by uncomfortable cross-cultural exchanges. First, I don't think it's correct to say systemic structures are at play given that Nog is clearly a foreign national, a citizen of one of the quadrant's superpowers, trying to gain entry to another's most vital institutions, one tasked with security and safety. More importantly, the story probes questions about how individuals assimilate. Nog presents himself to Sisko according to a bunch of Ferengi assumptions. Someone trying to pay (bribe might be too strong) isn’t a good indication that they understand how the organization works, let along the culture attached thereto. Would Nog conduct himself within Starfleet according to Ferengi customs? Wouldn't that be akin to a Russian, who had been part of the Young Army, wanting to join the Military Academy? There is a huge difference between an American teenager and a Russian teenager already in how they conceptualize leadership and hierarchy. Such individual could be part of the Army for decades, something bound to have institutional reverberations. Sisko actually addresses Nog's inquiry in Ferengi terms. Where is the profit? He challenges Nog to show his beliefs are compatible. (The surprise is that Nog will abandoned those values--at least when he reaches contemporary Earth.)

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Deleted post.

 

[Nerys Myk]

What's comments to pm mean?

It means if you wish to talk about the ruling, you should PM the mod involved and not discuss it here. (this thread)

 

[Laughing Dragon]

It means if you wish to talk about the ruling, you should PM the mod involved and not discuss it here. (this thread)

Well, ok, then. I will erase the post and PM the mod.

 

[matthunter]

Was Sisko prejudiced against Nog because he was a Ferengi? Or because he saw his name on a lot of Odo's security reports, often in conjunction with Jake?

Or was he just daring to step outside accepted societal preconceptions?

 

[Farscape One]

Definitely not the case. DS9 had more societal outcasts and people who went against their culture than all the other shows combined. And they all were welcome and worked together well.

It's why DS9 is the best representation of the spirit of the franchise than any other spinoff. What more inclusive message can there than to say, "It doesn't matter if you aren't welcome elsewhere. You are welcome here. We all help each other out."

The final scene of "BODY PARTS" illustrates this better than any statement I can make. (And why I hold that as the finest example of what STAR TREK is about, and one of the reasons why DS9 is so dear to me.)

 

[Oddish]

Definitely not the case. DS9 had more societal outcasts and people who went against their culture than all the other shows combined. And they all were welcome and worked together well.

Wow, true...
Kira - Shunted off to the station because she was a pain in the government's collective butt.
Odo - Cut off from the Founders.
Quark - Lost business license.
Nog - Ferengi who joined Starfleet.
Worf - Exile from Klingon culture.
Bashir - Genetically enhanced, making his existence illegal.
Ezri - A Trill, not trained or vetted, joined by mistake.
Garak - Exiled Cardassian spy.
Ziyal - Cardassian/Bajoran hybrid.

 

[at Quark's]

^Even Sisko himself must have been viewed with some suspicion by Starfleet, as he had this Prophet thingy going on as well, which made them wonder where his loyalty ultimately lay, even though it also gave him more traction with the Bajorans.

And then his wife Kasidy, would've carried the stigma of being a convicted smuggler for the Maquis who did some prison time for it as well.

 

[Oddish]

And three previous Dax incarnations were a reject, an iconoclast, and a murderer.

 

[fireproof78]

The final scene of "BODY PARTS" illustrates this better than any statement I can make. (And why I hold that as the finest example of what STAR TREK is about, and one of the reasons why DS9 is so dear to me.)

That was a good scene.

 

[kkt]

Wow, true...
Kira - Shunted off to the station because she was a pain in the government's collective butt.
Odo - Cut off from the Founders.
Quark - Lost business license.
Nog - Ferengi who joined Starfleet.
Worf - Exile from Klingon culture.
Bashir - Genetically enhanced, making his existence illegal.
Ezri - A Trill, not trained or vetted, joined by mistake.
Garak - Exiled Cardassian spy.
Ziyal - Cardassian/Bajoran hybrid.

Rom - Formed a (gasp) Union!
Keiko - A botanist on a space station.

 

[Elias Vaughn]

O'Brien - not even an officer

 

[Laughing Dragon]

Their achievements don't mean they did not face prejudice, for those who mentioned that. Some of these answers seem flip, though. IMHO.

"O'Brien - not even an officer"- Elias Vaughn
Plus, I am afraid I don't get this.

Wasn't the push for this Trek by DS9 producers as well as creators about TNG and everybody always got along? And they did not want that? Culture clashes did happen.

Was not gonna post in here again. It seems to have taken a turn and away with my question. *sigh*

Oh, I’m aware of the fact that the Ferengi can be read as an unfortunate antisemitic stereotype. That doesn’t make them a stand-in for actual Jews in Star Trek, though, which is the comparison that Laughing Dragon’s comments seemed to invite. Ferengi might remind the viewer of antisemitic Jewish stereotypes, but they are actually nothing like real Jews. It might be a small distinction, but I think it’s an important one.

So Sisko trying to provoke Nog by questioning whether Ferengi custom (and specifically their widespread propensity for the pursuit of profit) is not in direct contradiction of him wanting to join Starfleet, is most definitely not the same as a hypothetical situation where Nog would be a Jewish person and Sisko would utter a harmful antisemitic narrative like Jews being greedy. At least that’s how feel about it.


You know, I had to think about that for a moment, but I have to agree. This can be seen as a racist comment, even if just made to provoke Nog into speaking the truth. And you are of course correct: In that situation Sisko does actually wield some systemic power over Nog. Thanks for pointing that out.

Still, I think what irks me about this comparison, and why I called it out, is that I believe it’s problematic to put this on the same level (or anywhere near) some of the most horrendous real world examples of racism and antisemitism. I agree with you that both start on a personal level, but what makes them so dangerous and insidious is when they become institutionalized by law or culture. Which is why I think it’s a mistake to say what Sisko is doing in that scene is comparable to real world racism and antisemitism.

Also, when I said Jew, I did not mean a stand in that sense. I could have said black or gay too. Or even a woman. I think I mentioned that. I did not even mean stereotypes of Jews at all. I don't believe in those anyway. I always felt aliens quite obviously were stand ins for culture clashes because earthlings were no longer prejudiced towards each other. As I said already DS9 did not want to portray this bunch as everybody getting along. That was part of their grey approach and why some liked it. Another example: It was up there with presenting religion and persecution more than just a passing thought.

LOOKs like people are just rewording what I said of course and everybody likes it. So, it can be seen as systematic.racism??? Huh...

 

[Farscape One]

Their achievements don't mean they did not face prejudice, for those who mentioned that. Some of these answers seem flip, though. IMHO.

"O'Brien - not even an officer"- Elias Vaughn
Plus, I am afraid I don't get this.

Wasn't the push for this Trek by DS9 producers as well as creators about TNG and everybody always got along? And they did not want that? Culture clashes did happen.

Was not gonna post in here again. It seems to have taken a turn and away with my question. *sigh*


Also, when I said Jew, I did not mean a stand in that sense. I could have said black or gay too. Or even a woman. I think I mentioned that. I did not even mean stereotypes of Jews at all. I don't believe in those anyway. I always felt aliens quite obviously were stand ins for culture clashes because earthlings were no longer prejudiced towards each other. As I said already DS9 did not want to portray this bunch as everybody getting along. That was part of their grey approach and why some liked it. Another example: It was up there with presenting religion and persecution more than just a passing thought.

LOOKs like people are just rewording what I said of course and everybody likes it. So, it can be seen as systematic.racism??? Huh...

Your original post was talking about the Sisko/Nog scene in "HEART OF STONE" and how you thought Sisko was prejudiced, and I think it's been very well explained by multiple people how it was not Sisko acting out of prejudice.

I don't see people rewording what you said and being able to call it systemic racism.

 

[Oddish]

Agreed. Given Nog's sizable rap sheet, I think that Sisko was incredibly open-minded.

 

[Poltargyst]

If Sisko sponsors Nog and Nog screws up either by getting into trouble or just not being able to make the grades, Sisko's reputation suffers. Sisko had every right to test Nog to see why he really wanted to go to Starfleet.

 

[kevinc]

Doesn't this whole episode, Heart of Stone, start off with Nog giving money to Sisko to purchase an apprenticeship, essentially a transaction or bribe, indicating that Nog doesn't fully grasp the values that that the Federation upholds? Seems like from that point on, Sisko had a duty a fully interrogate Nog's intentions.