Should TMP be ignored?

[Balok's Decoy]

We should excommunicate every piece of Star Trek that either doesn't fit with canon or that "fans think are bad."

Star Trek doesn't exist anymore. We can all go home.

 

[Galileo7]

We should excommunicate every piece of Star Trek that either doesn't fit with canon or that "fans think are bad."

Star Trek doesn't exist anymore. We can all go home.

Agree.

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[Tallguy]

I guess the only argument for ignoring / not ignoring TMP (or any movie or show) seems to be "do the puzzle pieces fit?" Because on the merits of quality and story telling the idea of ignoring TMP is - as others have noted - preposterous.

The answer is (IMHO) that the pieces fit well enough. As I said earlier, I don't think the creative staff cared. It just had to fit with Space Seed specifically and TOS in general. But it doesn't really go AGAINST anything in TMP. If you want you can interpret the line "they've damaged the photon controls and the warp drive" as a callback to TMP's phaser configuration. Or not.

But it is an interesting thought exercise to take TWOK almost entirely on its own: This is the first time you had seen these characters in nearly 15 years, rather than TMP. It still flows perfectly.

I also rather enjoy the idea of "things always looked like this". Just think, there are worlds where all of Star Trek looked rather like TOS. Or TMP.

 

[J.T.B.]

TMP is not my favorite Trek film, but it's crucial to Spock's character arc. TMP is where Spock finally makes peace with his human emotion, which informs Nimoy's playing of the character in all of his subsequent appearances.

That's what I have said when this has come up before. If a character as important as Spock has such a major part of his character resolved, I think it deserves to be dealt with onscreen. But really I don't care if people ignore it or not, if doesn't affect me or my enjoyment of the movie.

 

[Tallguy]

That's what I have said when this has come up before. If a character as important as Spock has such a major part of his character resolved, I think it deserves to be dealt with onscreen. But really I don't care if people ignore it or not, if doesn't affect me or my enjoyment of the movie.

That would have been my argument as well. But then I realized that the one (TWOK) is not really based on the other (TMP). It certainly doesn't have to be and I don't know as the writers / director intended it to be. Nimoy may have, or he may have just said "I am never playing Spock as uptight as he was in that last thing."

OTOH, TMP made a much bigger deal about Spock pursuing his resolution (both by trying to attain Kolinahr and then abandoning it because of Vejur) than TNG ever did with Data. The fact that we could see a character evolution in TWOK even though it is never explicitly referenced speaks a lot to how compelling that story was with Spock.

And then he died and it mostly went away.

 

[J.T.B.]

But then I realized that the one (TWOK) is not really based on the other (TMP). It certainly doesn't have to be and I don't know as the writers / director intended it to be. Nimoy may have, or he may have just said "I am never playing Spock as uptight as he was in that last thing."

Nimoy was actually involved in developing and writing Spock's TMP story, so I think he would have been quite conscisous of it. A quote I posted in an earlier thread:

"Harold and I worked closely on the script as we went along. I am pleased with what we worked on that is in the film, but I'm not convinced that they have successfully used everything that we worked on. [...] I felt we included ideas which I'm not sure are resonating now in the film. For example, the very last line that i have in the film where I say my work on Vulcan is complete: that line I don't think really tells us what it should. It seems to be a gratuitous, arbitrary decision on Spock's part. Whereas the concept -- and the design of the script -- was that Spock would come aboard the ship intending to find some answers to a problem that he was trying to deal with on Vulcan. It was a personal search, a kind of evolutionary experience that he went to Vulcan to accomplish, but couldn't achieve there. He hopes that the answers to these questions that are troubling him will be available to him when he gets to V'Ger, this thinking, being mind out in space.

"Now when he gets there, it's another matter. As he says to Kirk in sickbay, it doesn't have any answers. He says 'I should have known,' the irony is there, 'V'Ger doesn't have any answers, it's asking questions.' Now , the point here is -- and it's unfortunate that I have to explain it, it's like trying to explain a painting; either it works or it doesn't -- that what we were after was that Spock has discovered that the search is unnecessary."

--Leonard Nimoy, quoted in Return to Tomorrow: The Filming of Star Trek the Motion Picture by Preston Neal Jones​

 

[Tallguy]

Nimoy was actually involved in developing and writing Spock's TMP story, so I think he would have been quite conscisous of it. A quote I posted in an earlier thread....

That's a terrific quote. I also think it's very obvious what that line meant. I mean, I knew what that meant when I was ten and I'm not the swiftest transtator in the tricorder.

I'm not saying he wasn't aware of / didn't remember TMP. I was saying that 1) he wasn't as involved in the writing of TWOK, and 2) I'm not sure that TMP was an experience he felt like revisiting. I may have been confusing his enjoyment of playing the story of his character (which was both challenging and front and center to the story) with his enjoyment (or lack thereof) in just filming TMP.

 

[J.T.B.]

I'm not saying he wasn't aware of / didn't remember TMP. I was saying that 1) he wasn't as involved in the writing of TWOK, and 2) I'm not sure that TMP was an experience he felt like revisiting. I may have been confusing his enjoyment of playing the story of his character (which was both challenging and front and center to the story) with his enjoyment (or lack thereof) in just filming TMP.

Sure, it just seems likely that Nimoy's performance in ST2 and after was informed by Spock's story in TMP, given that he had helped shape it.

 

[arch101]

Should you ignore TMP? Sure, if you don't like science fiction.

 

[BillJ]

If there is a discrepancy in TOS films, I think its more significant between 5 and 6. At the end of 5 Kirk and crew were drinking at a party with Klingons. Sulu and Chekov following around that hot Klingon chick. By 6 Kirk was hating all Klingons and the crew couldn't stand the smell of them.

I really don't see the discrepancy. Kirk at the end of The Final Frontier is happy to be alive, his ship safe. Kirk at the beginning of The Undiscovered Country has done his bit and is ready to retire.

Kirk was also upset because he was pushed into the assignment by someone who was was a friend.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Too bad the movies *aren't* reversed. If you take out Scotty's vague references to the end of Star Trek IV, and take into consideration Uhura's grey hair, it almost makes more sense. that they all retire in Undiscovered Country, and are enjoying *post* retirement fun at Yosemite, when they are called back for one last mission with the skeleten crew and the half broken, being decomissioned ship.

The only thing that truly throws off this thought is Sulu's presence in TFF.

The thought of the original crew's missions ending with STV is too depressing for me to contemplate.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Nimoy was actually involved in developing and writing Spock's TMP story, so I think he would have been quite conscisous of it. A quote I posted in an earlier thread:

"Harold and I worked closely on the script as we went along. I am pleased with what we worked on that is in the film, but I'm not convinced that they have successfully used everything that we worked on. [...] I felt we included ideas which I'm not sure are resonating now in the film. For example, the very last line that i have in the film where I say my work on Vulcan is complete: that line I don't think really tells us what it should. It seems to be a gratuitous, arbitrary decision on Spock's part. Whereas the concept -- and the design of the script -- was that Spock would come aboard the ship intending to find some answers to a problem that he was trying to deal with on Vulcan. It was a personal search, a kind of evolutionary experience that he went to Vulcan to accomplish, but couldn't achieve there. He hopes that the answers to these questions that are troubling him will be available to him when he gets to V'Ger, this thinking, being mind out in space.

"Now when he gets there, it's another matter. As he says to Kirk in sickbay, it doesn't have any answers. He says 'I should have known,' the irony is there, 'V'Ger doesn't have any answers, it's asking questions.' Now , the point here is -- and it's unfortunate that I have to explain it, it's like trying to explain a painting; either it works or it doesn't -- that what we were after was that Spock has discovered that the search is unnecessary."

--Leonard Nimoy, quoted in Return to Tomorrow: The Filming of Star Trek the Motion Picture by Preston Neal Jones​

You know, I never realized until I read this that Spock's arc in TMP could've fit into The Wizard of Oz without much trouble.

 

[Phoenix219]

The thought of the original crew's missions ending with STV is too depressing for me to contemplate.

The movie is sooooo TOS though... ending with a cheesy joke, the attention paid to the Triad, the action adventure western setting; Kirk taking on another wannabe god..... I have a total love of TFF. It was also the first Trek movie I got to see in the theater as a kid.

Have you ever seen the Jack Marshall Edit of the movie, that turns it into a pilot length episode? It fixes *everything* about the movie. Its one of my absolute favorites, through that cut.

I could see ending the series with a TOS throwback, after the serious story told in II, III, IV and VI. bookending with 1 and V (1 being the most different, and V being a return to roots) can almost be seen like coming full circle.

 

[Commishsleer]

I really don't see the discrepancy. Kirk at the end of The Final Frontier is happy to be alive, his ship safe. Kirk at the beginning of The Undiscovered Country has done his bit and is ready to retire.

Kirk was also upset because he was pushed into the assignment by someone who was was a friend.

'Let them die'.
His reluctance to host the dinner in VI was in contrast to the drinks party at the end of V. He wasn't storming out or making racist petty remarks about the Klingons at the end of V like he did in VI

Its sôrt ôf like Picards sudden overwhelming hatred of the Borg in FC. I thought he'd resolved his personal issues with them in the series.

 

[Nebusj]

Its sôrt ôf like Picards sudden overwhelming hatred of the Borg in FC. I thought he'd resolved his personal issues with them in the series.

It's a bit like that, yeah, and it's not perfectly smooth. On the other hand, people are not perfectly smooth either; how relaxed or how vengeful they feel about things does vary in time, sometimes incredibly, particularly as the life around them changes. People change, not always as we want. Sometimes we stumble into a dark corner without realizing we ever meant to go that way.

Anyway, I find it believable that the cocktails at the end of V are the way Kirk (and company) want to be, while the dinner party in the first act of VI are the way Kirk (and company) want to be better than.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

The movie is sooooo TOS though... ending with a cheesy joke, the attention paid to the Triad, the action adventure western setting; Kirk taking on another wannabe god..... I have a total love of TFF. It was also the first Trek movie I got to see in the theater as a kid.

As I said in another thread recently, STV is like TOS, but it's a third season episode when the budget was slashed and the writing went to hell.

Have you ever seen the Jack Marshall Edit of the movie, that turns it into a pilot length episode? It fixes *everything* about the movie. Its one of my absolute favorites, through that cut.

No, I haven't. Is it available online? I'd certainly give it a try.

I'd REALLY want them to edit out the bit about Sybok being Spock's brother, though. I've always felt that was pretty contrived.

 

[RColtrane]

If I had to ditch TMP or ditch the rest of the movies, I'd ditch the rest of the movies. TMP is really the only one about something and trying to be a movie.

Leave it exactly where it is at.

Perfect!!

While the film did try to play his inexperience with the new Enterprise, there wasn't any real consequences to his actions. They warp into a wormhole, blow up an asteroid and come out of the wormhole. Everyone is fine.

Because of Decker, or they would be dead. And you forgot that Kirk assumed the transporter room controllers despite the fact that he doesn't know a tenth on how the new ship operates and put a person aside, who was specifically trained to do that job, only to have two crew members killed. He should have been punished by that right after returning to earth. The consequences were pretty much ignored by the following films, it's not a TMP fault.

If you ignore TMP, you completely miss the Decker Unit.

 

[BillJ]

Because of Decker, or they would be dead. And you forgot that Kirk assumed the transporter room controllers despite the fact that he doesn't know a tenth on how the new ship operates and put a person aside, who was specifically trained to do that job, only to have two crew members killed. He should have been punished by that right after returning to earth. The consequences were pretty much ignored by the following films, it's not a TMP fault.

For all we know, he was familiar with the transporters. It wasn't like anyone was offering anything else other than what he did. Rand should've been reprimanded from turning away from her post during a crisis.

 

[Tallguy]

For all we know, he was familiar with the transporters. It wasn't like anyone was offering anything else other than what he did. Rand should've been reprimanded from turning away from her post during a crisis.

In the novel he reaches for an override control and finds that it's been moved.

An ill considered exchange is when he says to Rand "It wasn't your fault." Well, NO, Mr. Galactic Hero, YOU took the controls!

 

[Phoenix219]

As I said in another thread recently, STV is like TOS, but it's a third season episode when the budget was slashed and the writing went to hell.

No, I haven't. Is it available online? I'd certainly give it a try.

I'd REALLY want them to edit out the bit about Sybok being Spock's brother, though. I've always felt that was pretty contrived.

That is definitely one of the things that is edited out, and the movie doesn't skip a beat for it. I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the edit. I have never found a high res version anywhere, but the lower res one is still eminently watchable, definitely no worse then watching a network tv broadcast back in the day. i believe the site is:

[LINK REMOVED]

Message me for a link.