What happens between TMP and WOK?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Commander Kielbasa, Jan 8, 2017.

  1. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or this Starfleet is unlike the one we see in the 24th century where you can reject promotions any time. Nogura allowed Kirk to have some fun with the refit Enterprise then recalled him to his prior posting.
     
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  2. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Good point, well made.
     
  3. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Realistically, that's what admirals do, desk jobs. Very demanding, very important, very consequential, very challenging, but it's planning, organizing, budgeting, conferencing. Even for admirals who command from aboard a flagship, it's mostly the same, just with smaller offices. Kirk would have know that was the ultimate destination for his entire professional career. If he didn't want to contribute to Starfleet in that kind of role, he should have put in for retirement. Oddly, Kirk says he hates inspections, where one might expect him to enjoy a chance to get out of the office.

    Nogura couldn't order Kirk to whatever job he wanted him in? Kirk could refuse the order, of course, if he wanted to become a civilian.

    As for TWOK without TMP: The first movie was pivotal for Spock's character. After interfacing with V'ger and re-connecting with his friend Jim, the old "inner-conflict" Spock is never seen again. The WOK version is decidedly more easygoing. Without TMP, a crucial piece of Spock's story is missing.
     
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  4. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    Again (for this recapitulates on old thread somewhat), attributing Spock's personality changes necessarily to the events of TMP is a rather thin thread upon which to conclude that the events of TMP must fit into the same continuity.

    1. Spock already was growing more in touch with his human side during the TV series, becoming more mellow, occasionally getting laid (which would, I think, have more impact than mind-melding with Veedjer). He said he was "not Herbert" and it was true.

    2. Kirk had a markedly different personality too, both the writing and the performance, in the later movies. He too was "decidedly more easygoing" in TWoK. Yet the events of TMP cannot be construed as pivotal for his character, surely not by comparison to the impact of the events of TWoK.

    Perceived changes in character from one film production to another have more to do with changes in personnel (writers, director, etc.) than with retrospectively imposed perceptions of "character growth."
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  5. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't know? During season three, I thought the character had a decidedly icy demeanor compared to the first two seasons.
     
  6. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, he's quite jolly in the first season by comparison.
     
  7. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    In my head, the incident with Zarabeth was the final straw and Spock left Starfleet shortly afterward to go home and attempt Kolinahr. Not even sure he stayed with the Enterprise to finish the five-year mission.
     
  8. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The Sarpeidon incident proved that Spock was more Vulcan than human, since he resorted to being a Vulcan barbarian rather than a sarcastic, sharped tongued human like McCoy.
     
  9. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    Not wanting to admit to your fellow bridge officers that you'd tremendously enjoyed eating barbecue and getting down with Zarabeth isn't the same thing as being ashamed of it.

    Moreover, why couldn't he just as well have been reverting to (that is, why couldn't his human half have been reverting to) the behavior of humans of that era? Although Spock assumed he was reverting to Vulcans of that era only, humans and Vulcans (Vulcanians?) of Zarabeth's era might have behaved indistinguishably from each other.

    The last episodes also featured Spock voluntarily participating in a jam session (playing 12-bar blues, no less) and agreeing to have a brandy in Flint's parlor. The 1969 Spock could easily be the direct antecedent of the TWoK Spock.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  10. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I don't see it. But differing views is what makes discussions like these interesting.
     
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  11. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    Frankly, this is completely stupid. There are far (FAR!) bigger continuity issues between various Trek instalments than anything that exist between TMP and TWOK.

    As for this horrible question which breaks the continuity: why would Kirk accept a desk job second time? He didn't. He merely returned to the job he had before the V'Ger crisis, as he, and everyone else expected. Maybe he had a brief fun ride on his old ship, but the command was always meant to be temporary.
     
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  12. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    Longinus, I think you're overstepping a bit here. I've been careful to use "would" and "might" and to make clear that this is just one speculation no less likely than any other. You are the one speaking as though you know for a fact that Kirk "merely returned to the job he had before."

    Surely as a fleet captain you are able to characterize others' speculations with words less blunt than "stupid."

    It seems to me that anyone who uses the term "the V'ger crisis" is automatically giving credence to the events of TMP as having central importance in Trek continuity. I guess that's the real difference here, because I sure don't give TMP that status - in part because I found it such a letdown in 1979 following years of buildup (the "A 23rd Century Odyssey Now" magazine ad, etc.). Perhaps younger fans who never saw the original-cast movies as they were released - who are looking at them as all from the same era that we're so far away from today - are more likely to try to embrace TMP.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  13. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    You're right, I could have chosen my words better. (But I'm bad at that, so i didn't.) But regardless the tone of my post, I still think my point stands: you have yourself created the problem based on which you wish to exclude this film. The movie states that the rank reduction was temporary, and thus presumably would be the command based on it. Now of course we can come up (IMHO, not very plausible) reasons why that rank reduction and/or command would have been made permanent, but why would we, as it leads to the problems just as you have noted?
    I am not trying to include it any more than I would try to include say, 'Amok Time'. It is part of the Star Trek continuity and that's that. To me it sounds that because you do not like this film, you try to come up with reasons to exclude it. (I can kinda understand that, I have similar feeling related to the reboot films, of course, there is that whole parallel timeline shenanigans going with them.)

    Now, everyone knows that sometimes there are problems of various sizes in Star Trek continuity (when did Romulans invent the cloaking technology, do Klingons have tear ducts) and then fans come up with various explanations or just ignore the source they don't like in their headcanon. But I really don't see any such problem with TMP and TWOK, they fit together just fine, at least just as well than say, two randomly chosen episodes of TOS.
     
  14. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Because McCoy acted pretty much the same as he always did, and he is 100% human. He did not 'revert' he remained a sharp tongued, borderline anti Vulcanophile.
     
  15. BillJ

    BillJ Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I watched the films as they came out, TMP continues to be my favorite. I usually watch it every other month. :eek:
     
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  16. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Getting laid had more impact than a concentrated data-blast from a super-entity with digitized planets' worth of information that was so powerful it put him in the hospital? Somehow I doubt it!

    Spock connecting with the space hippies was not because he was more mellow, it was because he could identify with them because he too felt like an outsider.

    Spock was set up as a character with an internal struggle, and yes the series went back and forth on it. But IMO, if a character that important resolved that struggle, it deserves to be addressed onscreen. Spock was given that resolution in TMP, and we know Nimoy appreciated the significance of it and was somewhat involved in shaping that part of the script. And I think he played the character differently after that. If you want to ignore TMP it doesn't bother me, but as I said it has an important part of Spock's story.
     
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  17. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    Okay, okay, okay. All you higher-ranking officers are right. I withdraw from further speculation.

    I'm certainly aware that the TMP script was in rough shape even during filming (with changes in story and screenplay credits along the way), possibly giving Nimoy an opportunity to make a contribution to scenes involving Spock's internal struggle. But the only place where I've seen this described is in Christopher Bennett's comments to a Tor.com blog post in 2013, summarizing material from the book about the Phase II series:

    Roddenberry managed to coax Livingston back to fix the script’s problems, though the two of them didn’t get along well and there was an extensive back-and-forth rewriting process between the two, with script input by Wise, Shatner, and Nimoy as well. The script was being constantly rewritten, sometimes up until just before scenes were shot. (The stuff with Spock weeping and getting philosophical about the search for meaning was largely written by Nimoy, I think.)

    Maybe this is documented more substantially somewhere, but I don't recall Nimoy mentioning any TMP script contributions in I Am Spock. The very long and detailed Memory Alpha article about TMP mentions Nimoy's (and Shatner's) script contribution to one scene unrelated to Spock's personal growth, but later quotes Nimoy as saying

    We didn't feel that we were getting to play the characters that we enjoyed playing in the way that we knew how to play them.

    These do not sound like the words of a man who got to contribute to how his character was depicted on screen.
     
  18. Tomalak

    Tomalak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The way Shatner and Nimoy describe it on the DVD extras, they basically wrote the ending on the set.

    Pinch of salt, etc.
     
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  19. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Leonard Nimoy, quoted in Return to Tomorrow: The Filming of Star Trek the Motion Picture by Preston Neal Jones:

    "Harold and I worked closely on the script as we went along. I am pleased with what we worked on that is in the film, but I'm not convinced that they have successfully used everything that we worked on. [...] I felt we included ideas which I'm not sure are resonating now in the film. For example, the very last line that i have in the film where I say my work on Vulcan is complete: that line I don't think really tells us what it should. It seems to be a gratuitous, arbitrary decision on Spock's part. Whereas the concept -- and the design of the script -- was that Spock would come aboard the ship intending to find some answers to a problem that he was trying to deal with on Vulcan. It was a personal search, a kind of evolutionary experience that he went to Vulcan to accomplish, but couldn't achieve there. He hopes that the answers to these questions that are troubling him will be available to him when he gets to V'Ger, this thinking, being mind out in space.

    "Now when he gets there, it's another matter. As he says to Kirk in sickbay, it doesn't have any answers. He says 'I should have known,' the irony is there, 'V'Ger doesn't have any answers, it's asking questions.' Now , the point here is -- and it's unfortunate that I have to explain it, it's like trying to explain a painting; either it works or it doesn't -- that what we were after was that Spock has discovered that the search is unnecessary."​
     
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  20. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think some of the confusion here stems from different uses of the word "writing." My understanding is that after filming on TMP passed a certain number of weeks, clauses in Shatner's and Nimoy's contracts kicked in that gave them script approval. So they were offering their input in script meetings, but I seriously doubt that either one of them ever sat down at a typewriter to bash out script pages. I think their writing contributions were probably more along the lines of "Kirk should do this here" or "I think Spock would say something like this."

    For instance, I believe the scene towards the end where Kirk concludes that V'Ger is a child having a tantrum & orders the bridge cleared was Shatner's idea (I think I read this in Chekov's Enterprise). It was less talky & more active than anything Roddenberry was coming up with by that point. But it's a long way from saying, "Hey, Kirk should treat V'Ger like a baby and clear the bridge" to being the person who writes every line of dialogue & stage direction. But still... the idea originated with Shatner. So who "wrote" the ending? Shatner, the person who had the basic idea? Robert Wise, who likely offered his own opinions when the idea was suggested to him? Gene Roddenberry or Harold Livingston, who likely wrote the revised script pages? All of them? Something else?
     
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