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Should TMP be ignored?

Because of Decker, or they would be dead. And you forgot that Kirk assumed the transporter room controllers despite the fact that he doesn't know a tenth on how the new ship operates and put a person aside, who was specifically trained to do that job, only to have two crew members killed. He should have been punished by that right after returning to earth. The consequences were pretty much ignored by the following films, it's not a TMP fault.
Not trying to fault TMP for anything other than being the weaker of the two films when it comes to the story of Kirk and his desire to command a Starship again.

But if we must bring EVERYTHING to the table, you did forget one crucial moment in the film that further showcased the dangers of Kirk's inexperience with the Enterprise.

Kirk: Reduce magnification factor 4 mister Sulu
Sulu: We're already two settings below that sir.
Cripes! Send that Admiral back to the academy. No wonder Chekov calls him Marc later on in the film.
 
The quick change in uniforms is often used as a reason TMP is too inconsistent, but the people who bring that up forget that we're dealing with people who probably don't ever even *wash clothes* - they just take their uniforms off and throw them into a material reclaimer, and get a fresh uniform from a replimat the next day. We're dealing with future tech. It's probably possible for Starfleet to make adjustments to the uniform within 2 weeks (and that's allowing for subspace comm time for the design to reach the farthest ships), much less within two years. There might be a uniform *between* TMP and TWOK that we've never even seen or heard about.
 
Not trying to fault TMP for anything other than being the weaker of the two films when it comes to the story of Kirk and his desire to command a Starship again.

But if we must bring EVERYTHING to the table, you did forget one crucial moment in the film that further showcased the dangers of Kirk's inexperience with the Enterprise.

Kirk: Reduce magnification factor 4 mister Sulu
Sulu: We're already two settings below that sir.
Cripes! Send that Admiral back to the academy. No wonder Chekov calls him Marc later on in the film.

Wasn't that more about the immense size of V'ger, then Kirk's inexperience with the "refit" E's controls?
 
I skip the Animated Series (which is what Roddenberry considered non-canon anyway).

That means that shortly after Season 3 ended, Enterprise went on one last mission (the Prime Directive violation mentioned in Voyager) and returned to Earth. Kirk gets 'promoted' to Rear Admiral and becomes Chief of Starfleet Operations. Then in mid-2272 came V'Ger.
 
Isn't that very similar to a line from TOS? I don't recall it off the top of my head.
Are you thinking of "The Corbomite Maneuver"?

SPOCK: Reading goes off my scale, Captain. Must be a mile in diameter.
BAILEY: Over five thousand metres away, and it still fills the screen.
KIRK: Reduce image. Let me see all of it.
SULU: Magnification two five, sir. Magnification one eight point five, sir.​

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/3.htm

Sulu had to reach over and work Bailey's controls.
 
Are you thinking of "The Corbomite Maneuver"?

SPOCK: Reading goes off my scale, Captain. Must be a mile in diameter.
BAILEY: Over five thousand metres away, and it still fills the screen.
KIRK: Reduce image. Let me see all of it.
SULU: Magnification two five, sir. Magnification one eight point five, sir.​

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/3.htm

Sulu had to reach over and work Bailey's controls.
Might be.

Anyway, it's not that Kirk doesn't know what's going on (again) when he asks for the magnification change. It's that under normal circumstances the only way something would look that big was if they were zoomed in. Kirk's reaction is not one of shock but "Ok, FINE then, if that's the way you want to play it!"

By this point in the story the "wildcard" has moved from Kirk (who has his arc pretty well sewn up by now for some reason and is more or less his old Captain-y self) to Spock.
 
That is definitely one of the things that is edited out, and the movie doesn't skip a beat for it. I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the edit. I have never found a high res version anywhere, but the lower res one is still eminently watchable, definitely no worse then watching a network tv broadcast back in the day. i believe the site is:

http://surak.nu/image/

There should still be a live link there.
Cool, thanks! I'll check it out.
 
I believe the direction not to use TAS as source material came from the ailing Roddenberry's lawyer Leonard Maizlish during the early days of TNG. Much later, some references to TAS have crept in, such as in ENT and ST09.

Kor
If Chaos on the Bridge is anything to go on, everything terrible about early TNG can be placed at the feet of Lenoard Maizlish.
 
I believe the direction not to use TAS as source material came from the ailing Roddenberry's lawyer Leonard Maizlish during the early days of TNG. Much later, some references to TAS have crept in, such as in ENT and ST09.

Kor

True. I'd have been interesting if the Kzinti arc had been done to attempt to explain how Earth had an intergalactic conflict within a few years of having warp drive.

In all honesty, the only things from TAS I did like was the Caitians and Amanda getting a last name.
 
True. I'd have been interesting if the Kzinti arc had been done to attempt to explain how Earth had an intergalactic conflict within a few years of having warp drive.

In all honesty, the only things from TAS I did like was the Caitians and Amanda getting a last name.
I get to be cranky about how amazing and unappreciated TMP is AND how amazing and unappreciated TAS is ALL IN THE SAME THREAD. This is a paradise of nerdy crankiness!

BTW, this has led me to make a spreadsheet (which I'm sure many/some people before me have done - no really, it's a thing) trying to tie in lots of the "known" dates (like "haven't logged a single star hour in two and a half years" and "a man I haven't seen in fifteen years"). I'm mostly ignoring later data points given by other shows. If it came second then it's a mistake and I don't have to consider it.

I'm assuming that Kirk is 49 in TWOK. It's what the writers intended and it matches the times given on screen. (Which is unusual. So why the heck did Generations feel the need to change it?!?) It also keeps Kirk consistently two years younger than Shatner. Or I can just assume that TWOK is 15 years after Space Seen / The Deadly Years as stated which makes Kirk 49. Tomato/tomato.

I have to come to the following conclusions (and a couple of opinions).

1) If Kirk gives up the Enterprise / is made to give up the Enterprise after TMP it's 9-10 years between TWOK and TMP. If you put TOS later in the Five Year Mission then it's a year or two longer. I went with the on screen assumption that The Corbomite Maneuver is one year into the FYM. (Yes, I used a Voyager data point.)

This is terrific for a lot of the narrative (Kirk desperately unhappy, crew getting on with their lives.) It kind of clashes with the end of Roddenberry's TMP novel where there is no way Kirk has to be an Admiral again. Which leads us to:

2) If Kirk and crew get another FYM post TMP then it's somewhere around 3-5 years which is a reasonable amount of time for Kirk to get antsy again. It also allows Spock, Chekov, and Sulu to move on with their careers (even assuming that Chekov and Sulu stayed with the Enterprise for the entire mission). That all falls apart after TVH, but what can you do?

Whether Kirk commands again after TMP or not, it still puts TWOK ~10 years after TMP. So an issue is that if the Enterprise is newly refit in TMP then why is she a training vessel so soon? (The movie states it's because there is not an available crew, which I knew was silly when I was 13.)

If we DO take out TMP and assume that everything is just like it was in TOS only with a movie budget (ship, uniforms, etc.) then the E is a training ship just because she's hella old. So there is that. That's the sturdiest reason for assuming TMP and TWOK aren't compatible.

Not on topic: The one data point I've run across that just doesn't work without a serious tweak is Kirk knowing Mitchell for 15 years AND meeting at the Academy when Kirk was instructing. You can change some of those details, but if you keep them all the Kirk was at most 17 years old. I know Jimmy is a wunderkind, but that would be pushing it.

Also Kirk and Spock are the same age and I have the CANON references to back it up.

tl;dr: NO we don't ignore TMP! (Or TAS!)
 
I get to be cranky about how amazing and unappreciated TMP is AND how amazing and unappreciated TAS is ALL IN THE SAME THREAD. This is a paradise of nerdy crankiness!
I might start a TMP appreciation thread if one doesn't already exist because that movie is amazing and beautiful and deserves way more love and thought than it currently receives. TAS too. TAS is awesome.
 
I might start a TMP appreciation thread if one doesn't already exist because that movie is amazing and beautiful and deserves way more love and thought than it currently receives. TAS too. TAS is awesome.
I'm pretty sure there are several. I try to participate in any that I see.
 
I might start a TMP appreciation thread if one doesn't already exist because that movie is amazing and beautiful and deserves way more love and thought than it currently receives. TAS too. TAS is awesome.

There's been plenty. Fill your boots. I'm in.
 
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