Should TMP be ignored?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by WarpFactorZ, Aug 25, 2017.

  1. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Commodore Commodore

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    As we know, there are many problems with trying to squeeze TMP into the canon. It works as a follow-up to TOS, but really only if you allow for more than just 2 years between the two. As a "prequel" to TWOK and the remaining movies, however, it introduces even more problems (elapsed time, slow rank progression, complete reboot of uniforms, etc...). If you assume that TMP never occurred and there's about a 12ish year gap between the end of the 5 year mission and TWOK, it smoothes over many of the bumps.

    Would it not be simpler to just pretend that TMP never occurred, and ex-communicate it from Trekdom? What are the pros and cons? Discuss!
     
  2. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    It works just fine in the continuity, but it indeed works better if you assume it happens about five years later than usually assumed. And as the year is not stated on screen, you can easily do just that!

    There was recently talk about this topic on this thread on TOS section.
     
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  3. Kor

    Kor Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed, move it back a few years in the chronology and it's just fine.

    Kor
     
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  4. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If I had to ditch TMP or ditch the rest of the movies, I'd ditch the rest of the movies. TMP is really the only one about something and trying to be a movie.

    Leave it exactly where it is at.
     
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  5. Tallguy

    Tallguy Commodore Commodore

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    Answer: Hell no. 1) It's a great movie and 2) it's the only Star Trek movie Roddenberry made.

    But yes, I realized a few years ago that TWOK is not a sequel to TMP. They run parallel. The TWOK Enterprise isn't a refit. It just always looked like that. Ditto the uniforms. Spock didn't have his Vejur epiphany, he just grew up.

    The only reason you can't just move TWOK around is because of it happening 15 years after Space Seed as stated in the script (Kirk is 49), on screen by two characters, and in real life.

    Although this hasn't stopped The Powers That Be from moving it, so go ahead, knock yourself out. :)
     
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  6. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Commodore Commodore

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    I'm not advocating moving TWOK at all. It works where it is, temporally, in relation to TOS. Also, it leaves a dozen or so years of Kirk et al.'s story untold, so their respective paths from the five year mission to re-grouping in TWOK can be more varied. Spock can still try for Kolinahr, McCoy can still go off and be a hermit, and so on. Kirk get promoted and spends a decade as a desk jockey, which makes his mid-life crisis all the more relevant.

    If you think about it, the only original crew that still seem to be assigned to the Enterprise are Spock, because he's their professor, and Scotty and Uhura. Maybe they're now at the Academy as well teaching their respective expertise). Chekov is clearly elsewhere, Kirk is also gone, and it's not really clear that Sulu and McCoy are regulars on board. Rather, it's more like Kirk asked them back for fun (which is more evident in the deleted language of the pod ride).

    I like it more as a reunion film, instead of the "Oh, we never really went anywhere, except Kirk and Spock -- and it's only been about two years since we saw them" that TMP offers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
  7. Longinus

    Longinus Commodore Commodore

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    Why?

    I really don't get this, I really don't see these inconsistencies between these two films people are talking about. I think they make perfect sense in continuity with each other. The only problem I have is that it really doesn't feel that over a decade has passed between them, but that is only a problem if you believe Star Trek Chronology dating of TMP and that's really not canon.
     
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  8. Haggis and tatties

    Haggis and tatties Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Unless William Conrad is in it catching crooks, i don't take much notice of canon, i just watch and enjoy Trek and most other TV shows that are long running, and i don't let canon bother me, same with Who, far as i am concerned the Cushing movies are part of the TV show and Cushing is just playing the first doctor.
     
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  9. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    Of all the reasons to disregard TMP, this is surely the most trivial. Uniforms change. Obviously somebody at Starfleet thought he/she was a fashion maven and it didn't work out. So the uniforms were completely redesigned to be a little more practical to wear (and not have any "imperfections" be immediately noticeable).

    Mind you, I'd find the TWoK uniforms uncomfortable since they make everyone look like they're dressed to go outside in November, rather than sitting on a climate-controlled starship.
     
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  10. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

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    I'm definitely not part of the camp who thinks the designs we saw in TWOK were meant to canonically replace the designs we saw in TOS. Things change over time. Plus the Star Trek franchise has already established that the TOS designs were still canon.

    Now for the subject at hand, I do think that TWOK is a better 'admiral' story for Kirk than TMP was. In TMP, Kirk being an Admiral didn't come off as much of a hinderance because he was able to talk his way into getting command of the Enterprise back rather quickly. While the film did try to play his inexperience with the new Enterprise, there wasn't any real consequences to his actions. They warp into a wormhole, blow up an asteroid and come out of the wormhole. Everyone is fine. When Kirk's overconfidence plays out in TWOK, the consequences are real and it lasts throughout the rest of the film. In TMP, his inexperience plot point is pretty much dropped the moment Spock comes aboard.

    TMP ends with Kirk getting what he already had from the opening moments of the film. TWOK ended with Kirk finding a new purpose with his life after Spock's death with a subtle confirmation that he seriously wants to be a Captain again.
     
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  11. Ron Nasty

    Ron Nasty Piggy in the middle Premium Member

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    It's a Star Trek film. There for it's canon. How it fits and if it fit is irrelevant. Personally, I'm not a fan, but that too has no relevance to it being canon.
     
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  12. Maurice

    Maurice Vice Admiral Premium Member

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    TMP doesn't necessarily take place 2 years after TOS, unless you assume the 5 year mission ended with Janice Lester. It's easy enough to buy that there were a couple of years we didn't see, followed by the "two and a half years" of Kirk at a desk.
     
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  13. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Commodore Commodore

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    Agree. TMP is the 2OO1 of Star Trek films. Epic. Visually beautiful, wonderful score and an engaging story about the crew of the majestic Enterprise-Refit.
    No. It should not be ignored.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
  14. I Am Kirok

    I Am Kirok Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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  15. Galileo7

    Galileo7 Commodore Commodore

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  16. urbanzombie

    urbanzombie Commodore Commodore

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    If you ignore TMP, you completely miss the Decker Unit. :techman:
     
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  17. Timewalker

    Timewalker Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady Premium Member

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    That would have been okay by me. I preferred Stephen Collins in Tales of the Gold Monkey. It was a fun adventure series... and the costumes weren't so revealing.
     
  18. GulBahana

    GulBahana Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I still watch TMP, once in a while, when I'm in the mood to space out and watch the visuals.
     
  19. Balok

    Balok Commodore Commodore

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    I would write a rebuttal to this "excommunicate it because canon" thing but I can't stop vomiting.
     
  20. Ron Nasty

    Ron Nasty Piggy in the middle Premium Member

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    If we applied the "excommunicate it because canon" to all of Star Trek, what would be left? ;)