Should Star Trek just give up?

[seigezunt]

xortex said:
And Seige, you're too young to be talking about money. In the real world, people do things for money usually.

Bless your soul, son. I'm 42.

and my point, which you once again missed, was that Gene was a creative soul, but he could be as crass as they come, and his work ain't the effing gospel. He made up IDIC to sell a trinket, and he wrote the words to the ST theme to rip off Alexander Courage. Okay?

You can slavishly worship him, but what you worship just ain't reality. And it's not fair to all the other people involved, and, as has been said above, this Gene-worship in part killed Gene's beloved vision, because it made made for some dull television. The killer B's certainly played a role in it, and didn't help the franchise after Gene died, but Gene doesn't get off the hook here, either.

Gene bailed on his lovely creation, TOS, in the second season, and only came back to Trek it when all his other projects went into the toilet.

He was involved in a great project, but just because this new project doesn't have his g.d. almighty seal of approval doesn't mean it will be heresy. It seems it may likely be an homage from what has been said so far.

oy gevalt.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Well Berman and mental gymnastics just don't go together. By outside of the box you mean outside of gene's universe ?

No I mean not constrained by a formula - the ever holy "Star Trek formula" which has killed Trek. That to be "Star Trek" it needs to follow A, B, or C. and never dare step outside of this. Simply sticking a mixed crew on a ship over again and repeating the same "allegory" that we should just get along does not alone good Star Trek make. Its become afraid to break out of this rut.

Many of the former Trek writers (including Braga himself) often took issue that they weren't permitted to leave a certain box or take risks and this was when Gene (and his Lawyer) were still around placing their "blessing" on things.

unless you think that Star wars was better.

So were back to this agian. First GR was no Rod Serling...
Second Star Wars and Star Trek are so vastly different throwing this strawman out is completly silly (you btw are the only one bringing up Star Wars... not ME! I can only guess its some personal issue you have) and proves well nothing much. You're myopic at best and elitist at worst both unbecoming traits in a Star Trek fan.

Its not a question of if I think Star Wars is better (I think they're two different animals so "better" doesn't apply) Oh if I have to make a comparison I'd say Babylon 5 was better then most modern Trek. B5 still knew what it was to be "human" something modern Star Trek seemed to put aside...

*The only right way to make good Star Trek is to recognize there is no "right way", no special formula to it - the answer is simple don't be afraid of change or take risks and never leave out the human factor in favor of technobabble.

Sharr

 

[Balthier the Great]

I agree on some of babylon 5, though I think it strted to loose steam in the middle of the Shadow War. I dunno, it just seemed like it was starting to get waaay too into "Sheridan is the Messiah". Eventually it was Sheridan can't be wrong, and the only way anyone could disagree would be to be hypnotised into disagreeing with Messiah Sheridan.

If you want great writing, I'd skip TV altogether. Frank Herbert is awesome, as is Asimov (btw I, Robot is nothing like the movie). Brave New World is great (author escapes me at the moment). The entire history of science fiction isn't The Rod Sterling and Gene Roddenbery show.

They did great stuff, no denials. But I'd bet if you could take either one off the record, they'd admit that they weren't perfect, and could probably name 3 or 4 who they thought were better.

But I'm with Sharr on the formulas. to quote Bruce Lee:

Art is the expression of the self. The more complicated and restricted the method, the less the opportunity for expression of one's original sense of freedom. Though they play an important role in the early stage, the techniques should not be too mechanical, complex or restrictive. If we cling blindly to them, we shall eventually become bound by their limitations. Remember, you are expressing the techniques and not doing the techniques.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Frank Herbert is awesome

My favorite writer, DUNE as I said up thread is my favorite book. Followed by James Clevell's Shogun and Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.

I agree on some of babylon 5, though I think it strted to loose steam in the middle of the Shadow War. I dunno, it just seemed like it was starting to get waaay too into "Sheridan is the Messiah". Eventually it was Sheridan can't be wrong, and the only way anyone could disagree would be to be hypnotised into disagreeing with Messiah Sheridan.

I've heard people take this view. I myself don't share it - though I can see why they would have it and in some ways the show itself was aware of this and tackled it. All in all it was more interesting though then being condescendingly talked down to by guys in tight pajamas in their flying hotel!

Sharr

 

[RookieBatman]

seigezunt said:
...He made up IDIC to sell a trinket...

That's not even the whole story. He made the trinket to sell , but then Nimoy wouldn't wear it if there wasn't a reason for Spock to wear it, so then he invented IDIC to sell the trinket. So, in a way, this great ideal of IDIC that many might credit Roddenberry with would probably not be around if Nimoy didn't have the artistic integrity he does.

 

[seigezunt]

Sharr Khan said:
Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.

I LOVE that book. Always wondered why it was never made into a film. Other than it's quite unfilmable, of course.

 

[Sharr Khan]

So, in a way, this great ideal of IDIC that many might credit Roddenberry with would probably not be around if Nimoy didn't have the artistic integrity he does.

Which is good for all of us.
Nimoy really should produce the next tv show if there is one!

Sharr

 

[RookieBatman]

Sharr Khan said:

So, in a way, this great ideal of IDIC that many might credit Roddenberry with would probably not be around if Nimoy didn't have the artistic integrity he does.

Which is good for all of us.

Of course. What I was trying to say was that not only is it not the case that all innovations of Star Trek were caused by Roddenberry, it's actually true that some innovations of Star Trek were specifically caused by opposing Roddenberry.

 

[seigezunt]

RookieBatman said:

Sharr Khan said:

So, in a way, this great ideal of IDIC that many might credit Roddenberry with would probably not be around if Nimoy didn't have the artistic integrity he does.

Which is good for all of us.

Of course. What I was trying to say was that not only is it not the case that all innovations of Star Trek were caused by Roddenberry, it's actually true that some innovations of Star Trek were specifically caused by opposing Roddenberry.

blasphemer!

 

[Sharr Khan]

RookieBatman said:

Sharr Khan said:

So, in a way, this great ideal of IDIC that many might credit Roddenberry with would probably not be around if Nimoy didn't have the artistic integrity he does.

Which is good for all of us.

Of course. What I was trying to say was that not only is it not the case that all innovations of Star Trek were caused by Roddenberry, it's actually true that some innovations of Star Trek were specifically caused by opposing Roddenberry.

Indeed I agree. That was one of those moments where Nimoy took what could have been a silly thing and made some compelling of it.

*I'm surprised the Scifi Channel hasn't tried to make "Stranger in a Strange Land"

Sharr

 

[cardinal biggles]

Is there a giant, menacing insect/alien/monster in it?

If not, there's your answer.

 

[Sharr Khan]

Alexander Courage

Since we've mentioned the Trek theme. Courage's remark about how Gene "got his hands on the song", was interesting and brought something up I'd never knew. Gene wanted to hear more of the "Girl".

I'd backtrack and watch the whole thing, this part is connected to Star Trek though.

I hope they overtly reference the theme in Trek XI.

Sharr

 

[xortex]

Definitely sounds like greed to me.

 

[Holytomato]

The Complete Robot is a better version of I, Robot.

Great Bruce Lee quote.

I think that one medium (stage, screen, radio, animation, prose, comix, rpg) is not better than another.

How do you want to present your story? That's the important factor.

 

[Franklin]

Sharr Khan said:
Alexander Courage

Since we've mentioned the Trek theme. Courage's remark about how Gene "got his hands on the song", was interesting and brought something up I'd never knew. Gene wanted to hear more of the "Girl".

I'd backtrack and watch the whole thing, this part is connected to Star Trek though.

I hope they overtly reference the theme in Trek XI.

Sharr

Didn't know about the "girl" thing, either.

Gotta think at least the fanfare from the theme will be used. Dontcha? Many of the other movies used it.

But perhaps over the closing credits someone may actually sing the lyrics to the theme for the first time. "Beyond, the rim of starlight...." Just to make sure there's a few extra royalties for the Roddenberry estate.

 

[seigezunt]

Franklin said:

Sharr Khan said:
Alexander Courage

Since we've mentioned the Trek theme. Courage's remark about how Gene "got his hands on the song", was interesting and brought something up I'd never knew. Gene wanted to hear more of the "Girl".

I'd backtrack and watch the whole thing, this part is connected to Star Trek though.

I hope they overtly reference the theme in Trek XI.

Sharr

Didn't know about the "girl" thing, either.

Gotta think at least the fanfare from the theme will be used. Dontcha? Many of the other movies used it.

But perhaps over the closing credits someone may actually sing the lyrics to the theme for the first time. "Beyond, the rim of starlight...." Just to make sure there's a few extra royalties for the Roddenberry estate.

Did you ever try singing them? What's worse than the blatant attempt to rip off the composer, the words don't even fit the freekin melody. "my love is wandreinginstarflight..."

 

[Franklin]

seigezunt said:

Franklin said:

Sharr Khan said:
Alexander Courage

Since we've mentioned the Trek theme. Courage's remark about how Gene "got his hands on the song", was interesting and brought something up I'd never knew. Gene wanted to hear more of the "Girl".

I'd backtrack and watch the whole thing, this part is connected to Star Trek though.

I hope they overtly reference the theme in Trek XI.

Sharr

Didn't know about the "girl" thing, either.

Gotta think at least the fanfare from the theme will be used. Dontcha? Many of the other movies used it.

But perhaps over the closing credits someone may actually sing the lyrics to the theme for the first time. "Beyond, the rim of starlight...." Just to make sure there's a few extra royalties for the Roddenberry estate.

Did you ever try singing them? What's worse than the blatant attempt to rip off the composer, the words don't even fit the freekin melody. "my love is wandreinginstarflight..."

Hee. Yes.
What's worse is, as much as I like Courage's theme, it's so damn hard to listen to it and not think of the lyrics. "Remember, remember me." Ugh. I wish I'd never seen them.

 

[xortex]

God forbid Gene Roddeberry's estate should make money off star Trek.

 

[seigezunt]

that he didn't earn.

 

[Sharr Khan]

xortex said:
Definitely sounds like greed to me.

When you make up words to a fanfare that doesn't call for them, aren't ever going to be used in the show... yeah that is kinda greed thanks very much.

Sharr