SF and People of Color
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Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
He was of Semitic descent, which is neither black nor white.
He was of Semitic descent, which is neither black nor white.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Realistically, we're talking about approximately 12.8% of the U.S. population here; so even if we were taking a literal representation approach, then the network prime time schedule of roughly 80 shows per week should have 10 shows that are predominantly black. Of course, that idealism is not how it works.
As mentioned in the thread already, television is about what can be sold, and 12.8% of a population is not a predominant target market. There's simply a finite marketing potential given that not even the full extent of the 12.8 actually watches television on a regular basis (i.e. some are too busy being doctors, lawyers, etc.). As such, it's no real surprise we don't see the airwaves constantly dominated by black series; but memorable television history as a whole is saturated with black series.
In any case, blacks already dominate sports and music because of their unique talents as an ethnic group; I think that works to compensate. However, it's all about what people will buy. And when there is some good black television product being produced, people will buy it too; but there's no way to force good product into being (and UPN should have proven to us that the shotgun approach to black television doesn't work either).
Realistically, we're talking about approximately 12.8% of the U.S. population here; so even if we were taking a literal representation approach, then the network prime time schedule of roughly 80 shows per week should have 10 shows that are predominantly black. Of course, that idealism is not how it works.
As mentioned in the thread already, television is about what can be sold, and 12.8% of a population is not a predominant target market. There's simply a finite marketing potential given that not even the full extent of the 12.8 actually watches television on a regular basis (i.e. some are too busy being doctors, lawyers, etc.). As such, it's no real surprise we don't see the airwaves constantly dominated by black series; but memorable television history as a whole is saturated with black series.
In any case, blacks already dominate sports and music because of their unique talents as an ethnic group; I think that works to compensate. However, it's all about what people will buy. And when there is some good black television product being produced, people will buy it too; but there's no way to force good product into being (and UPN should have proven to us that the shotgun approach to black television doesn't work either).
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
If white people start watching his shows, he's going to start thinking they're good and make even MORE!
Don't do it!
If white people start watching his shows, he's going to start thinking they're good and make even MORE!
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
So you want them to create fiction.
So you want them to create fiction.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
But the point is taken that the subjects are the same, so the two threads will be merged
But the point is taken that the subjects are the same, so the two threads will be merged
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Caliburn24, although I share your frustration to an extent, I submit that you have such in B5, with the characters of Brother Theo and Rev. Dexter. ("And the Rock Cried Out ...")
Careful ...
Caliburn24, although I share your frustration to an extent, I submit that you have such in B5, with the characters of Brother Theo and Rev. Dexter. ("And the Rock Cried Out ...")
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
What are the 'unique' ethnic talents of blacks? Entertainment and sports are two fields of endeavor that have been historically more open to blacks. Whereas, other fields have slowly began to open up after the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s/1960s. This 'unique' comment seems to suggest that blacks are physically superior to whites-which might conversely suggest that whites are intellectually superior-and I reject both ideas, if they are what you're suggesting. Since the 1960s blacks have pushed boundaries and shattered glass ceilings at an astonishing rate, though the media doesn't report on success as much as it dwells on failure. In my parents' lifetime, they were born in the segregation, and recently had the opportunity to elect the first black President, in a roughly 40 year span.
I don't think the quality of the UPN shows, for example, is solely the reason that whites are not watching shows with black leads or predominately black casts. Most sitcoms, etc. have quality issues across the board. Quality is an issue, being on smaller networks, such as UPN/CW, might be another, but also there is the way such shows are marketed and promoted. Generally they aren't promoted to a 'wider' (i.e. white) audience. It's almost assumed, by the TPTB that these shows won't appeal to whites, that whites can't identify with blacks. I think that there is a long way to go in terms of whites being comfortable with seeing blacks as three-dimensional characters on a lot of TV shows/movies, and not just comic relief, criminals, background characters/tokens/Black Best Friends, noble savages, magical Negroes, eunuchs, or faithful servants. I still think there is a disconnect in our society between blacks and whites in terms of viewing the black experience as alien or outside the 'mainstream' (white) experience that gets reflected in casting, writing, and viewing decisions.
It's also reflected in viewing patterns. If you put the top ten shows in black households v. white you're going to see some marked differences. This is an old article to illustrate my point but I don't think much has changed:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n17_v91/ai_19239961
Another issue for me is not just adding a black, brown, yellow, or red character to a cast but how is that character developed, how integral or important is that character to the show, etc.
One thing that still steams me, for example, is Blade the Series-and how Blade was pushed to the side for a totally new white character Krista who dominated the show's small run with another new white character Marcus. Blade was the least interesting, and arguably least developed character on a show that beared his name. It's this kind of myopia that I feel some white writers/creators don't even think about, but as a black person who has loved genre works since I was a kid-but saw very little people that look like me initially, and then seeing more but with some less than appealing roles-I noted immediately. I still enjoyed the series, and bought it when it came out, but I was disappointed in its creative direction. As I'm currently disappointed with BSG and it's decision to have Dualla inexplicably commit suicide.
What are the 'unique' ethnic talents of blacks? Entertainment and sports are two fields of endeavor that have been historically more open to blacks. Whereas, other fields have slowly began to open up after the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s/1960s. This 'unique' comment seems to suggest that blacks are physically superior to whites-which might conversely suggest that whites are intellectually superior-and I reject both ideas, if they are what you're suggesting. Since the 1960s blacks have pushed boundaries and shattered glass ceilings at an astonishing rate, though the media doesn't report on success as much as it dwells on failure. In my parents' lifetime, they were born in the segregation, and recently had the opportunity to elect the first black President, in a roughly 40 year span.
I don't think the quality of the UPN shows, for example, is solely the reason that whites are not watching shows with black leads or predominately black casts. Most sitcoms, etc. have quality issues across the board. Quality is an issue, being on smaller networks, such as UPN/CW, might be another, but also there is the way such shows are marketed and promoted. Generally they aren't promoted to a 'wider' (i.e. white) audience. It's almost assumed, by the TPTB that these shows won't appeal to whites, that whites can't identify with blacks. I think that there is a long way to go in terms of whites being comfortable with seeing blacks as three-dimensional characters on a lot of TV shows/movies, and not just comic relief, criminals, background characters/tokens/Black Best Friends, noble savages, magical Negroes, eunuchs, or faithful servants. I still think there is a disconnect in our society between blacks and whites in terms of viewing the black experience as alien or outside the 'mainstream' (white) experience that gets reflected in casting, writing, and viewing decisions.
It's also reflected in viewing patterns. If you put the top ten shows in black households v. white you're going to see some marked differences. This is an old article to illustrate my point but I don't think much has changed:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n17_v91/ai_19239961
Another issue for me is not just adding a black, brown, yellow, or red character to a cast but how is that character developed, how integral or important is that character to the show, etc.
One thing that still steams me, for example, is Blade the Series-and how Blade was pushed to the side for a totally new white character Krista who dominated the show's small run with another new white character Marcus. Blade was the least interesting, and arguably least developed character on a show that beared his name. It's this kind of myopia that I feel some white writers/creators don't even think about, but as a black person who has loved genre works since I was a kid-but saw very little people that look like me initially, and then seeing more but with some less than appealing roles-I noted immediately. I still enjoyed the series, and bought it when it came out, but I was disappointed in its creative direction. As I'm currently disappointed with BSG and it's decision to have Dualla inexplicably commit suicide.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Wasn't it the entire ideal to have a black Captain? Sort of like President Clinton pledged to have a female Attorney General. I remember the initial grumbling about its a black guy and look he's only a Commander. If they really had guts Cassidy would have been white.
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Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Uh, why make Cass white? If Ben is attracted to the black babes that's his bussiness. Besides, they already had a great mixed-marrage couple in the form of Miles and Keiko. And there was Jadzia/Worf too, so it's not like they were afraid to do some mixing...
Oh yeah, to the OP:
Yes, the entire civil rights movement was one giant failure because three shows, all with diverse, somewhat rotating casts, don't have any black main characters at the moment.
Uh, why make Cass white? If Ben is attracted to the black babes that's his bussiness. Besides, they already had a great mixed-marrage couple in the form of Miles and Keiko. And there was Jadzia/Worf too, so it's not like they were afraid to do some mixing...
Oh yeah, to the OP:
Yes, the entire civil rights movement was one giant failure because three shows, all with diverse, somewhat rotating casts, don't have any black main characters at the moment.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Then you hit the rub. It being an American TV program and with the entire racial hierarchy theories where black stood on the bottom. The last frontier was to place a heroic black man, not a gangster which the audience wants to see dead, with a white women, a blond Nordic white woman.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
If the Bible is to be believed -- and I won't argue either side of this debate -- then Jesus had no biological father. Because Jesus was male and his mother was female, Jesus' genes were not identical to his mother's. For these reasons, if one believes in the claims of the Bible, then how can anyone "know" Jesus' genetic background?
If the Bible is to be believed -- and I won't argue either side of this debate -- then Jesus had no biological father. Because Jesus was male and his mother was female, Jesus' genes were not identical to his mother's. For these reasons, if one believes in the claims of the Bible, then how can anyone "know" Jesus' genetic background?
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
If I'm not mistaken, Brooks specifically wanted his romance to be with a black woman so he could show a healthy romantic and family relationship as an example to the young black audience who may not have it in their home. He said something to that effect in an interview or Q&A session or some such.
If I'm not mistaken, Brooks specifically wanted his romance to be with a black woman so he could show a healthy romantic and family relationship as an example to the young black audience who may not have it in their home. He said something to that effect in an interview or Q&A session or some such.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
For me, interacial relationships on TV/movies are not the last frontier. There's nothing wrong with them per se in reality, but in mass media entertainment they usually come at the expense of the non-white character sacrificing their culture to accept the dominant white culture/norms, it's rare that it's the other way around.
I would like to see more healthy intra-relationships between blacks, Latinos, Asians, featured first before just sticking these characters with white counterparts and calling it a day.
For me, interacial relationships on TV/movies are not the last frontier. There's nothing wrong with them per se in reality, but in mass media entertainment they usually come at the expense of the non-white character sacrificing their culture to accept the dominant white culture/norms, it's rare that it's the other way around.
I would like to see more healthy intra-relationships between blacks, Latinos, Asians, featured first before just sticking these characters with white counterparts and calling it a day.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
I think it's assumed that Jesus was simply born with the exact same ethnic makeup as Mary. Mary also had several other children with hubbie, and I don't think they ever mentioned Jesus as sticking out as a completely different race from the rest of his family.
Right, I believe Brooks wanted to show an example of a successful black marriage.
I think it's assumed that Jesus was simply born with the exact same ethnic makeup as Mary. Mary also had several other children with hubbie, and I don't think they ever mentioned Jesus as sticking out as a completely different race from the rest of his family.
Right, I believe Brooks wanted to show an example of a successful black marriage.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Seeing how half the Christian Church believes that Mary remained a virgin. Perhaps we can use the entire proof of Jesus being a direct decendent of David instead.
Seeing how half the Christian Church believes that Mary remained a virgin. Perhaps we can use the entire proof of Jesus being a direct decendent of David instead.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Jesus had several brothers and sisters if I recall correctly, so it's pretty impossible for Mary to have remained a virgin. Where the hell did John come from? I'm just going off the bible here, not any real religious dogma.
Jesus had several brothers and sisters if I recall correctly, so it's pretty impossible for Mary to have remained a virgin. Where the hell did John come from? I'm just going off the bible here, not any real religious dogma.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Different churches believe differently on that matter; to me it makes perfect sense for Jesus to have been the firstborn, with others to follow.
And sorry to go off topic--but now that the thread's been merged, I think my last post in the older one is now stuck way upthread somewhere. I was wondering if anybody else noticed/had a problem with the way Broca's character was cast and handled? Seriously, had the makeup been off, I think it would've been insulting for him to be the first representative of the Cardassian race to be played by an African-American. Broca's behavior is just...just...servile, and insulting!
My thought? There should've been a more diverse acting cast playing the Cardassians beforehand.
Different churches believe differently on that matter; to me it makes perfect sense for Jesus to have been the firstborn, with others to follow.
And sorry to go off topic--but now that the thread's been merged, I think my last post in the older one is now stuck way upthread somewhere. I was wondering if anybody else noticed/had a problem with the way Broca's character was cast and handled? Seriously, had the makeup been off, I think it would've been insulting for him to be the first representative of the Cardassian race to be played by an African-American. Broca's behavior is just...just...servile, and insulting!
My thought? There should've been a more diverse acting cast playing the Cardassians beforehand.
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator
Infraction for flaming
Truly, I am sick and tired of pathetic assholes like him trying to blame 'The Man' for everything. What does he expect?Drat, too bad he ran away. It would have been fun to see his reaction to that.
I'm sure he'll be back eventually. And I'm sure it won't be the same old topic then either.
Infraction for flaming
