SF and People of Color

[captainduprix]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

If the demographics showed a large percentage of black people watching these shows, they'd probably have more black characters. But then, there's the circular reasoning that if they had more black characters, more black people would watch. But money managers don't care about that end of the argument, they just see what they get right now, and cater to that.

Two, if there were more black writers, directors and producers, there would probably be more black characters. You can probably make a case for racism making it difficult for black people to attain those positions...but the again, as a white guy living in small town Canada, it's hard for me to get there, too. Should I complain that there aren't enough Canadian characters?

Actually, there are Canadian-born actors throughout the SF Diaspora: Bill Shatner, James Doohan from the Original Star Trek and several actors on Stargate and BSG. But then, I was not arguing ethnicity--race/skin color has always been an issue on television.

And I missed the point on Black actors vis-a-vie black writers, etc. Gene Roddenberry was a proponent of racial diversity, and he was white. I happen to be a black novelist. Should I only create black characters? That would be silly and racist, not to mention boring. And do you know for a fact how many blacks watch SF shows? Most of my family and friends tivo Heroes and BSG.

Your comments show traditional, short-sighted thinking. What I'm talking about is progressive, non-traditional thought.

Ex.: Will Smith, Queen Latifah, and Jennifer Hudson all began their careers as rappers or singers. So did Ludacris, LL Cool J, and Puffy Combs. All of these men and women have had great success, including several Academy Award nominations, and one Oscar win (Hudson). And they were all given their biggest breaks by white directors and producers who saw only their talent and mass appeal. They represent an enormous growth market, beyond the traditional SF fan: young people of every racial group (fyi: most rap music is purchased by white teens). This is just good business, if nothing else.

 

[ArgentomaximusI]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Paterson Joseph and that guy from Serenity were apparentally finalists for the role of the eleventh Doctor Who but didn't make the cut.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Didn't you only just do this thread a few weeks ago? http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=79197

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Paterson Joseph and that guy from Serenity were apparentally finalists for the role of the eleventh Doctor Who but didn't make the cut.

They were just rumours. But Paterson Joseph is in Survivors.

 

[captainduprix]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles has a central African-American character, James Ellison (Richard T. Jones). Dollhouse has Boyd Langton (Harry Lennix), who could end up being the moral center of the show and the audience's primary character to identify with. (It also has a regular, Dichen Lachman, who's half-Tibetan, interestingly.) Fringe has two African-American regulars, Lance Reddick as Phillip Broyles and Jasika Nicole as Astrid Farnsworth.

Knight Rider had Sidney Tamiia Poitier in its cast originally, but she was perhaps the least important character in the show and has now been written out -- though of the three recently dropped regulars, she's the only one who wasn't killed off. Meanwhile, Asian cast member Smith Cho was upgraded from recurring to regular status.

So while I agree that the decreasing diversity in Heroes' cast is a problem (don't watch Lost, can't comment, and BSG is almost over), it's being overly selective to focus on three shows and say that TV has become segregated. Although maybe it's significant that all the genre shows with strong African-American presences are on the same network, FOX.

I agree with you on the other shows. I must also admit that I have not seen Fringe or Dollhouse. I will say that I haven't seen any blacks in any of the commercials. I also don't think these shows have the audience that the ones I mentioned do.

Still, Sarah Conner is a bright spot that I neglected to mention, for want of making a point. There are always exceptions.

 

[captainduprix]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Didn't you only just do this thread a few weeks ago? http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=79197

Not really, but the gist is the same. And I'm still black. And as there seems to be a general lack of diversity on these posts as well, I feel I am functioning constructively.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Didn't you only just do this thread a few weeks ago? http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=79197

Not really, but the gist is the same. And I'm still black.

So? Seems like most people couldn't give a shit what colour the characters are, so long as they're well written and acted, why does it matter to you that they be black? As Temis says at least shows seem to be trying to be diverse. But you throw in a quota of diversity to meet and someone is gonna get over looked somewhere.

 

[DonIago]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Hey, DonIago...that outfit you're wearing on your homepage reminds me of the one Peter Gabriel's wearing in the beginning of the video for "Steam"...tres pimp.

You should see the shoes!

Platforms with plastic goldfish in the heels. I attached blinky LED's to them as well. I've got pics of them somewhere on my site.

 

[T'Baio]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Actually, there are Canadian-born actors throughout the SF Diaspora: Bill Shatner, James Doohan from the Original Star Trek and several actors on Stargate and BSG. But then, I was not arguing ethnicity--race/skin color has always been an issue on television.

Canadian born actors, yes, but not Canadian characters. If there are no Canadian characters on shows, I don't feel represented, either. So we're in the same boat.

And I missed the point on Black actors vis-a-vie black writers, etc. Gene Roddenberry was a proponent of racial diversity, and he was white. I happen to be a black novelist. Should I only create black characters? That would be silly and racist, not to mention boring.

The point isn't that only black artists can create representations of black people. My point was that if there were more behind the scenes creative personnel who were black, we would probably see more black representations on the screen. People tend to write what they know, especially TV writers who have to write a script a week.

And do you know for a fact how many blacks watch SF shows? Most of my family and friends tivo Heroes and BSG.

I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt, no. I'm surmising. Television producers go where the money is, that's it. They cater to the major demographics that make them the most money. For whatever reason, that seems to be 18-35 white folk.

Your comments show traditional, short-sighted thinking. What I'm talking about is progressive, non-traditional thought.

Spare me the insults. I'm not against your assertions that we need more representations of blacks, and all minorities, on television. I'm aware of how damaging it can be to a cultural psyche to not see yourself represented in any national media. I agree with progressive, non-traditional thought and any other cliche'd, arm chair, first year sociological term you can come up with. I was offering possible explanations, not solutions.

Ex.: Will Smith, Queen Latifah, and Jennifer Hudson all began their careers as rappers or singers. So did Ludacris, LL Cool J, and Puffy Combs. All of these men and women have had great success, including several Academy Award nominations, and one Oscar win (Hudson). And they were all given their biggest breaks by white directors and producers who saw only their talent and mass appeal. They represent an enormous growth market, beyond the traditional SF fan: young people of every racial group (fyi: most rap music is purchased by white teens). This is just good business, if nothing else.

And you still claim blacks are underrepresented?

 

[bullethead]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Also, the show runners might not pick black actors auditioning for parts because those actors don't fit their image of that character. If the producers don't like the person's performance, that's the end of it. And I've heard that black actors auditioning for scifi roles is pretty rare for some reason (I'm not sure how accurate that is though).

 

[captainduprix]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Didn't you only just do this thread a few weeks ago? http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=79197

Not really, but the gist is the same. And I'm still black.

So? Seems like most people couldn't give a shit what colour the characters are, so long as they're well written and acted, why does it matter to you that they be black? As Temis says at least shows seem to be trying to be diverse. But you throw in a quota of diversity to meet and someone is gonna get over looked somewhere.

First of all, the profanity is unwelcome. I'm sure your vocabulary is broad enough for you to express yourself without it. It smacks of anger and hostility, and I'm sure this was not your intention

Secondly, it matters because I'm black, and I live in a country with a long, documented history of racial discrimination and white privilege. It matters because I live on a planet where most folks are black or brown. it matters because what we see on TV represents the zeitgeist, the spirit and attitudes of the ruling class. And if the shoe were on the other foot, I'm sure it would most definitely matter to you.

And finally, the hand-grenade of quota is always thrown in there, isn't it? Every time this issue comes up, someone suggests that to include blacks would be to institute a quota system. Actually, a quota is a limit or cap created to protect the majority, not a mandate for inclusion. The way a quota would work is, for example, a producer has an upper limit on how many blacks could be on a given show, not a minimum number.

I would just like to see more diversity on TV, maybe even get to see a black man save the day and get the girl every now and then. Why is that so hard to understand? Maybe because you can't relate?

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

As the "moral authority" on Sarah Connor, I think Ellison is actually the character I enjoy watching most. GREAT role model, and not as dark and depressing as the rest of the characters can get. I love the storyline he's been given, on teaching ethics to a machine. Very interesting to me.

Mr. Echo, next to Locke, was my favourite character on Lost. Very complex, loved his backstory, loved his current one. But the actor didn't want a full time gig on the show, so he left. So you can't blame the writers on that one. He was awesome. Who knows, he may still have been around today to fulfill your quota. (Arguable, maybe not as well. Just throwing it out there)

Sometimes there's no motive or explanation other than "it just didn't happen". I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

At least the Treks did well. TNG, DS9 especially... well, Enterprise didn't REALLY have a black main character.

 

[captainduprix]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

This is an important dialogue to have, one that would not have been possible for my parents to have had with many of yours. I thank you all for your responses, both pro and con. But since I am not a complete and utter geek, I have more pressing matters to attend to today.

Thank you for your time, and I will see you the next time I want to tilt at windmills.

 

[Guartho]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Canadian born actors, yes, but not Canadian characters.

What about Rodney McCay?

 

[cb31]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

This is why I as a white male cannot watch basketball! I wish there was a quota for number of whites on each basketball team. Such discrimination is HORRIBLE!

 

[cb31]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

I also have trouble relating to scifi television because there are not enough main characters who are short, chubby, vision impaired thirty-somethings like me!

 

[Orintho]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

I would not be so quick to blame 'we' in this instance. Hollywood does not accurately represent nor do they always have their finger on the pulse of America, so to speak.

And I have a theory about one factor of Hollywood that may contribute to this

Consider who makes up Hollywood. Not the actors and such, but who are the people behind the scenes that make these kinds of decisions. Having a successful career in Hollywood can lead to a lot of wealth and power. Greater wealth generally means a more exclusive lifestyle for that person and their offspring.

Also - how do they get new people hired - and again, I am not talking actors. In many cases it is done via internships - either not paid or paid very little. Who can afford let alone actually know to take these kinds of low-to-no paid spots working in a very pricey town? The children of the wealthy and exclusive upbringings can. So nepotism and plays a hand there.

The wealthy breed wealthy children who go to exclusive private schools and have a sheltered upbrining. These grow up and replace their parents. I think this is one of the reasons much of the liberal expression from Hollywood seems a bit dated too.

Consider another side. Why is it all these years that Latinos have been fairly underrepresented in Hollywood? As late as TNG (a show specifically structured to show racial and cultural diversity) I recall reading about one 'Latina' actress was turned down because, to paraphrase what she was told, the Enterprise would not need a maid. Maybe because the people who cast and direct are used to dealing with Latinos as their yard workers and house maids? Course these were the same people who defined that the Dr. Crusher character would have a walk 'like a whore', so these are not really enlightened or fair minded. The people in Hollywood are not these paragons of perfect liberal views.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Not really, but the gist is the same. And I'm still black.

So? Seems like most people couldn't give a shit what colour the characters are, so long as they're well written and acted, why does it matter to you that they be black? As Temis says at least shows seem to be trying to be diverse. But you throw in a quota of diversity to meet and someone is gonna get over looked somewhere.

First of all, the profanity is unwelcome. I'm sure your vocabulary is broad enough for you to express yourself without it. It smacks of anger and hostility, and I'm sure this was not your intention

Sure, you're thread, sorry for my unwanted profanity, but that's just the way I generally talk around friends or in a relaxed atmosphere.

Secondly, it matters because I'm black, and I live in a country with a long, documented history of racial discrimination and white privilege. It matters because I live on a planet where most folks are black or brown. it matters because what we see on TV represents the zeitgeist, the spirit and attitudes of the ruling class. And if the shoe were on the other foot, I'm sure it would most definitely matter to you.

I'm white, overweight, have a congenital heart condition and a geek, I don't see too many people who fit that description and still act like a "normal" person on TV either, but you don't see me complaining that you don't see any "normal" geeks or disabled people on TV. I can relate to gay people though I'm not gay, I can relate to women though I'm not a woman, I can even relate the ethic minorities and understand where they are coming from. They don't have to be like me for me to understand them.

And finally, the hand-grenade of quota is always thrown in there, isn't it? Every time this issue comes up, someone suggests that to include blacks would be to institute a quota system. Actually, a quota is a limit or cap created to protect the majority, not a mandate for inclusion. The way a quota would work is, for example, a producer has an upper limit on how many blacks could be on a given show, not a minimum number.

I would just like to see more diversity on TV, maybe even get to see a black man save the day and get the girl every now and then. Why is that so hard to understand? Maybe because you can't relate?

I mentioned quota not as a way of saying ethnic minorities are forced on shows, but meaning if shows are told to have a percentage of ethnic cast you're not going to cover all ethnicities within that percentage unless it's a huge cast.

I understand what you're saying, and as I understand it a survey done of TV showed that Black people were under represented (percentage on TV vs the percentage of the population) by around 0.2%, although this was British TV not American TV.

Diversity should strive to fit the show, not shows strive to meet diversity, because if you have a show that is set in a community that has 95% white people are you going to force the cast to be 20% black just to fit more black people on screen? I would rather have the best person for the job than taking a black person for the role when he's the worst actor just to fill the "black character" for the show. That's not to say I think they should over look black actors if a role doesn't have a specific gender, race or ethnicity in mind then open it up to everyone.

 

[JNG]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

I keep hearing this response: why should it matter? And that's precisely the point. If it didn't matter, there would be more, wouldn't there?

No. If that's precisely the point, then the point doesn't make a lot of sense. If the race didn't matter, then sometimes there would be a certain number of people of color visible in certain media (or in any particular industry, or whatever), and sometimes not. If race isn't the determining factor, then a million other factors will shuffle the deck.

 

[Venardhi]

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

In my experiences as an actor, Ive only run into a couple handfuls of stage/screen-worthy actors out of the hundreds I've performed with. Mind you, some of them were incredibly talented, but they were a minority of the aspiring hordes. Ive also run into only a few handfuls of black actors period. combine the two and you end up with a very small pool of talented black actors. Add in the subconscious tendency of white writers/producers to write white characters, the suits preference for easily pigeonholed shows that fit their concept of markets and audience demographics and you end up with few roles written specifically for that small pool of talented black actors.

Is it fair? No. But there is some logical reasoning there. Want to change the system? Get into show biz.