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SF and People of Color

Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Hey, DonIago...that outfit you're wearing on your homepage reminds me of the one Peter Gabriel's wearing in the beginning of the video for "Steam"...tres pimp. :techman:

You should see the shoes! :)

Platforms with plastic goldfish in the heels. I attached blinky LED's to them as well. I've got pics of them somewhere on my site.
Ha! I'll keep an eye out for you next time I'm down on Church Street. ;)
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

The point isn't that only black artists can create representations of black people. My point was that if there were more behind the scenes creative personnel who were black, we would probably see more black representations on the screen. People tend to write what they know, especially TV writers who have to write a script a week.

You don't have to be black to make an effort to include black characters, or characters of other ethnicities. You just have to want to be inclusive. There are quite a few white producers who've committed to casting their shows multiethnically, including the creators of Deep Space Nine, Lost, and Heroes (the latter shows have lost diversity, but both started out admirably diverse). Avatar: The Last Airbender, an animated show set in an Asian-based fantasy world where every ethnicity except Caucasian is represented, was created by a couple of guys named Konietzko and DiMartino.

One place where you do find prominent black faces behind the scenes is in animation. Dwayne McDuffie and James Tucker have become major names behind Warner Bros.' animated output, and John Semper has been a story editor or producer on shows such as the '90s Spider-Man and Static Shock. And they aren't just doing "black" shows. McDuffie is currently story editor on Ben 10: Alien Force and Tucker is producing Batman: The Brave and the Bold; before then, they were both on Justice League and Tucker did Legion of Super Heroes.


I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt, no. I'm surmising. Television producers go where the money is, that's it. They cater to the major demographics that make them the most money. For whatever reason, that seems to be 18-35 white folk.

Where's the evidence that "white folk" as a whole are unwilling to watch shows about nonwhite people? Maybe a few are, but nobody should be catering to the likes of them.



Consider another side. Why is it all these years that Latinos have been fairly underrepresented in Hollywood? As late as TNG (a show specifically structured to show racial and cultural diversity) I recall reading about one 'Latina' actress was turned down because, to paraphrase what she was told, the Enterprise would not need a maid. Maybe because the people who cast and direct are used to dealing with Latinos as their yard workers and house maids? Course these were the same people who defined that the Dr. Crusher character would have a walk 'like a whore', so these are not really enlightened or fair minded. The people in Hollywood are not these paragons of perfect liberal views.

Latinos are fairly well-represented in the TV shows I watch. The West Wing had two consecutive presidents played by Latino actors (well, half-Latino in Martin Sheen's case), though only one was playing a Latino character. Galactica has Edward James Olmos. Fringe has Kirk Acevedo (who's Puerto Rican/Chinese). Knight Rider had Yancey Arias, though he's been dropped. Heroes has had cast members including Santiago Cabrera and Dania Ramirez, though I don't think there are any Latinos in the current cast mix. And of course there are plenty of Latinos/as on non-genre shows -- Roselyn Sanchez and Enrique Murciano on Without a Trace, Alana de la Garza on Law & Order, Eva Longoria on Desperate Housewives, etc.

Not to mention plenty of nonwhite actors on non-genre shows -- Omar Epps and Kal Penn on House, Anthony Edwards and S. Epatha Merkerson on L&O, Marianne Jean-Baptiste on Without a Trace, Laurence Fishburne as the current lead on CSI, etc.

Oh, and I forgot to mention one African-American lead character from a recently cancelled SF/fantasy show: Chi McBride from Pushing Daisies.




I'm white, overweight, have a congenital heart condition and a geek, I don't see too many people who fit that description and still act like a "normal" person on TV either, but you don't see me complaining that you don't see any "normal" geeks or disabled people on TV. I can relate to gay people though I'm not gay, I can relate to women though I'm not a woman, I can even relate the ethic minorities and understand where they are coming from. They don't have to be like me for me to understand them.

Hear, hear. We have got to get over this narrow-minded assumption that people can't care about anyone who doesn't resemble themselves. All it takes is imagination, respect, empathy, and an open mind.


Diversity should strive to fit the show, not shows strive to meet diversity, because if you have a show that is set in a community that has 95% white people are you going to force the cast to be 20% black just to fit more black people on screen?

Now, that's a fair point as far as it goes; sometimes inclusion can be taken to an illogical degree, like insisting on having a black character in every Robin Hood adaptation, or casting black actresses to play Cleopatra even though she was the last of a pure-bred imperial line of Macedonian Greeks.

But it is true that TV and movies often fail to represent the true diversity of present-day America. Look at the sitcom Friends, which was allegedly set in New York City but in which nonwhite faces were almost never glimpsed, in total defiance of reality.

And it's compounded when a show is supposed to be global in its storytelling, like Heroes or Lost, or set in the future, like Star Trek or Babylon 5. A particuarly egregious example was Firefly -- set in a future that's supposedly dominated by a mix of Western and Chinese culture, but almost totally devoid of Asian faces. And Trek's not much better; it's supposedly a unified Earth of the future, which one would expect to be about half-Asian, but the majority of the characters are of European ancestry and fully 60% of the character names are of British or Irish derivation.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Hear, hear. We have got to get over this narrow-minded assumption that people can't care about anyone who doesn't resemble themselves. All it takes is imagination, respect, empathy, and an open mind.
I know, I can never understand how people can say they can't relate. Surely we've all had experiences in our lives that are discriminatory, or hurtful, or love, or hate, whatever. Just because it doesn't fit exactly doesn't mean you can't relate your experience to theirs.

Now, that's a fair point as far as it goes; sometimes inclusion can be taken to an illogical degree, like insisting on having a black character in every Robin Hood adaptation, or casting black actresses to play Cleopatra even though she was the last of a pure-bred imperial line of Macedonian Greeks.

But it is true that TV and movies often fail to represent the true diversity of present-day America. Look at the sitcom Friends, which was allegedly set in New York City but in which nonwhite faces were almost never glimpsed, in total defiance of reality.

And it's compounded when a show is supposed to be global in its storytelling, like Heroes or Lost, or set in the future, like Star Trek or Babylon 5. A particuarly egregious example was Firefly -- set in a future that's supposedly dominated by a mix of Western and Chinese culture, but almost totally devoid of Asian faces. And Trek's not much better; it's supposedly a unified Earth of the future, which one would expect to be about half-Asian, but the majority of the characters are of European ancestry and fully 60% of the character names are of British or Irish derivation.
Which is what I mean by diversity should fit the show, Friends is a classic example, sure the main cast shouldn't necessarily be 25% (or so) black, but what about guest and background characters, surely they should at least attempt to fit the setting. I don't like tokenism, don't put a black guy in there for the sake of it, unless you're going to make him a fully formed character and not just a black guy spouting cliche catch phrases, but at least attempt be representative.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

The point isn't that only black artists can create representations of black people. My point was that if there were more behind the scenes creative personnel who were black, we would probably see more black representations on the screen. People tend to write what they know, especially TV writers who have to write a script a week.

You don't have to be black to make an effort to include black characters, or characters of other ethnicities. You just have to want to be inclusive.

Where I have said anything otherwise?

I don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt, no. I'm surmising. Television producers go where the money is, that's it. They cater to the major demographics that make them the most money. For whatever reason, that seems to be 18-35 white folk.

Where's the evidence that "white folk" as a whole are unwilling to watch shows about nonwhite people? Maybe a few are, but nobody should be catering to the likes of them.

Again, where have I said anything otherwise? The fact is, studio executives are often myopic. They see high numbers in the white male 18-35 demographic, they don't think "I'll bet they'd love to see diverse stories about vast cultures and religions." They think "I bet they want to see stories about people just like them, or who they'd like to be." I'm not saying it's right, I'm saying it's part of the reason you may not see a lot black characters compared white male Americans.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

This is why I as a white male cannot watch basketball! I wish there was a quota for number of whites on each basketball team. Such discrimination is HORRIBLE! :)
Obviously you don't watch basketball (I'm assuming you mean the NBA), because there are more white players in the league now than there has been in probably the last 15 to 20 years.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

The point isn't that only black artists can create representations of black people. My point was that if there were more behind the scenes creative personnel who were black, we would probably see more black representations on the screen. People tend to write what they know, especially TV writers who have to write a script a week.

You don't have to be black to make an effort to include black characters, or characters of other ethnicities. You just have to want to be inclusive.

Where I have said anything otherwise?

You said that if there were more black creative personnel, there'd be more black characters. I don't think that's the only way of achieving that, because I've seen plenty of cases where white creators have striven for diverse casts. And I don't even agree that it would necessarily be the case. Black producers don't automatically fill their shows with black characters. Look at Ben 10: Alien Force, a show whose producer is Japanese-American and whose story editor is African-American, yet which has no nonwhite regulars in its cast (although it is a sequel to a show created by different people).

After all, if what you say is true :
Television producers go where the money is, that's it. They cater to the major demographics that make them the most money. For whatever reason, that seems to be 18-35 white folk.
If the target demographic is somehow the reason for the lack of black characters, then any showrunner or executive, regardless of race, would still be tasked with appealing to that demographic. So you're making two somewhat contradictory assertions here.

Bottom line, I don't think either of these systemic rationalizations is the real reason for the lack of African-American presence in genre TV. There are plenty of non-genre shows that have prominent black cast members, so clearly audiences have no problem watching them. If anything, genre audiences should be more open to diversity. So I don't believe that catering to a white demographic is the explanation. (Indeed, networks have long recognized that black audiences are a major source of ad revenues, and we've seen whole networks, such as UPN, whose lineups were geared primarily at black viewers.) And I've seen plenty of white producers make a sincere effort to be inclusive in casting their shows. I think the explanation is that some producers simply aren't trying hard enough to be inclusive. There's no systemic reason why it can't happen; it's just a question of whether enough people are making enough of an effort to achieve it.

Indeed, I'm not even convinced it's a widespread problem. The original poster mentioned three prominent genre shows, Heroes, Lost, and BSG, that are currently lacking major black regulars. But two of those three shows used to have major black regulars and are still inclusive with regard to Asian cast members. One of those shows is ending in five weeks, the other in a season or so, and the other may be cancelled after this season. And in contrast to those three genre shows without black regulars, I've named three current genre shows that do have black regulars, one recently cancelled one that did, and another current show that did until recently. So it's about fifty-fifty between genre shows with major black cast members and those without. Those are coin-flip odds. Statistically speaking, a live-action prime-time genre show in the 2008-9 season is just as likely to have black regulars as to lack them -- considerably more likely if you take the show's entire history into account rather than just its current cast. That argues against the idea that there are any systemic factors working against racial inclusion.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Secondly, it matters because I'm black, and I live in a country with a long, documented history of racial discrimination and white privilege. It matters because I live on a planet where most folks are black or brown. it matters because what we see on TV represents the zeitgeist, the spirit and attitudes of the ruling class. And if the shoe were on the other foot, I'm sure it would most definitely matter to you.
Oh for fuck's sake! :rolleyes: Why do we whites have to feel guilty of everything our forefathers did? And for that matter, why do we always have to hand you non-whites everything? Can't you create anything of your own?
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles has a central African-American character, James Ellison (Richard T. Jones). Dollhouse has Boyd Langton (Harry Lennix), who could end up being the moral center of the show and the audience's primary character to identify with. (It also has a regular, Dichen Lachman, who's half-Tibetan, interestingly.) Fringe has two African-American regulars, Lance Reddick as Phillip Broyles and Jasika Nicole as Astrid Farnsworth.

Knight Rider had Sidney Tamiia Poitier in its cast originally, but she was perhaps the least important character in the show and has now been written out -- though of the three recently dropped regulars, she's the only one who wasn't killed off. Meanwhile, Asian cast member Smith Cho was upgraded from recurring to regular status.

So while I agree that the decreasing diversity in Heroes' cast is a problem (don't watch Lost, can't comment, and BSG is almost over), it's being overly selective to focus on three shows and say that TV has become segregated. Although maybe it's significant that all the genre shows with strong African-American presences are on the same network, FOX.

I agree with you on the other shows. I must also admit that I have not seen Fringe or Dollhouse. I will say that I haven't seen any blacks in any of the commercials. I also don't think these shows have the audience that the ones I mentioned do.

Still, Sarah Conner is a bright spot that I neglected to mention, for want of making a point. There are always exceptions.
Judging by most of your responses, you're not that aware of black actors on most shows and you adjust accordingly and still complain. Sounds to me like all you want to do is pull the race card :rolleyes:
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

As a gay man, I certainly can understand the desire to see more men and women of color on tv.

But lately (going back for really 15 years or so, cast with larger numbers of african american characters (or a lead who is african american) have tended to not get the highest viewer levels. And like it or not tv is a business, and if the model shows trends that show having a black lead doesn't help then it is understandable from a business point of view.

And as some have mentioned that, people in general (though of course not always) tend to watch something they can relate to. Its why gays make up a bigger percentage of the audience of a show that has a large gay cast, Its why shows like The Game, Girlfriends, Americans Next Top Model have made the top ten lists for African American viewership (when they rank 90th and worse in the overall). Cane (CBS show a year ago with a large hispanic cast) appealed to a higher level of hispancis.

The days of having a successful show that caters to a single racial group has shrunk.

The good thing though is that, you do see a much broader range of racial characters on ensemble shows.

And we do have shows that have african american leads. The Unit (though this might be its last year), CSI (The most viewed show on television, where the producers changed from a caucasian to an african american lead), to much smaller shows like the Game, Top Model, Everybody likes Chris.

And lets face it, thats more then shows with a gay lead, with an asian lead, with a hispanic lead.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Before this thread, I honestly couldn't care less about what race an actor was. After the OP's arguments and defensive, one-sided BS, which I consider borderline trolling, I'm glad he/she's not getting what he/she wants.

There is no point in even discussing this with the OP. He/she clearly has their mind made up.

If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go watch anything by Tyler Perry.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Not really, but the gist is the same. And I'm still black.
So? Seems like most people couldn't give a shit what colour the characters are, so long as they're well written and acted, why does it matter to you that they be black? As Temis says at least shows seem to be trying to be diverse. But you throw in a quota of diversity to meet and someone is gonna get over looked somewhere.

First of all, the profanity is unwelcome. I'm sure your vocabulary is broad enough for you to express yourself without it. It smacks of anger and hostility, and I'm sure this was not your intention :)

Secondly, it matters because I'm black, and I live in a country with a long, documented history of racial discrimination and white privilege. It matters because I live on a planet where most folks are black or brown. it matters because what we see on TV represents the zeitgeist, the spirit and attitudes of the ruling class. And if the shoe were on the other foot, I'm sure it would most definitely matter to you.

And finally, the hand-grenade of quota is always thrown in there, isn't it? Every time this issue comes up, someone suggests that to include blacks would be to institute a quota system. Actually, a quota is a limit or cap created to protect the majority, not a mandate for inclusion. The way a quota would work is, for example, a producer has an upper limit on how many blacks could be on a given show, not a minimum number.

I would just like to see more diversity on TV, maybe even get to see a black man save the day and get the girl every now and then. Why is that so hard to understand? Maybe because you can't relate?


I'm sorry, but it seems to me that what you truly want is for blacks to be dominant. You've been given several examples of black characters throughout sci-fi and other television and movies that were fantastic characters, yet you choose to ignore it. Benjamin Sisko, in particular comes to mind immediately. He was the main character of what many consider to be the absolute best of the Star Trek series. Not mention he was a consistently well written and endearing character as well. Then in the same show there's Worf, played by black actor Michael Dorn. Also one of the most beloved characters to come out of the entire franchise. Black actor Will Smith is one of the most bankable stars in Hollywood right now, regardles of his skin color, which is what skin color should be: unimportant. It should honestly not matter what color someone's skin is, or what their religion or sexual orientation is if they are the right person for the role.
 
As for the Klingons much f modern Klingon are actually based more on asian feudal times then african culture.

Interesting--I always saw the TNG/DS9 Klingons as being based on Vikings. Their beliefs and actions definitely struck me as Nordic in the historical/folkloric sense...the apocalypse in which the gods die, the afterlife where you fight for all eternity, the drinking culture, the boasting and honor emphasis, women as strong warriors, and personally--I always thought Klingon opera had the bombast of a Wagner, who often wrote on such subjects.

One of the places, though, where I ran into a problem with casting and somebody's lack of forethought was with the Cardassians.

Maybe I just missed some prominent black actors before Broca--but damn, if they were going to introduce diversity to the Cardassians, I would've liked to have seen some STRONG, NOBLE ones in real speaking roles before that blubbering little vole that was Broca.

I swear, had the makeup been off and the Cardassians had human-like skin types, that servile, whining behavior would've come off as insulting.

Am I the only one who observed that? Felt uncomfortable? :cardie:
 
Honestly, I'd be more uncomfortable with the Cardassians if I could actually tell the race of the actors playing them. But given the nature of the make-up, I've never been able to tell what the actor's ethnicity was. Beyond the three major Cardassian players--Dukat, Damar, Garak--I don't think I can name the actor behind the make-up, or recognize them out of it.
 
I have almost always been able to tell with the Cardassians...but I think part of that may be that I am an artist (amateur but fairly decent), and I've had to become attuned to such things as part of learning how to portray people tastefully and accurately. I would not necessarily be able to tell you exactly how the actor would look out of makeup, but I could give you a general read on them. So to me...it really stood out.

That said, with other races in heavier makeup (i.e. the Jem'Hadar), I generally can't tell the difference.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

^Hmm, don't even get me started on religion. I'm still waiting to see one hardcore Christian character on any major TV show portrayed in a positive light.

Instead we're usually villians or comic relief at best.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

^Hmm, don't even get me started on religion. I'm still waiting to see one hardcore Christian character on any major TV show portrayed in a positive light.

Instead we're usually villians or comic relief at best.

You might have to look to reality TV for that. Interestingly enough, I think TLC has a couple Christian families that are shown in a good light: the Roloffs in Little People, Big World, and the family from John and Kate Plus Eight.
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

It would be pointless to argue with you, since you clearly are not a person interested in anything but.
Huh? :rommie:

I'm sure you can approximate English better than that. Try again?

Didn't you only just do this thread a few weeks ago? http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=79197

And from the same guy, too! What are the odds of that?

Secondly, it matters because I'm black, and I live in a country with a long, documented history of racial discrimination and white privilege. It matters because I live on a planet where most folks are black or brown. it matters because what we see on TV represents the zeitgeist, the spirit and attitudes of the ruling class. And if the shoe were on the other foot, I'm sure it would most definitely matter to you.
Oh for fuck's sake! :rolleyes: Why do we whites have to feel guilty of everything our forefathers did? And for that matter, why do we always have to hand you non-whites everything? Can't you create anything of your own?

Drat, too bad he ran away. It would have been fun to see his reaction to that. :rommie:

I'm sure he'll be back eventually. And I'm sure it won't be the same old topic then either. ;)
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Drat, too bad he ran away. It would have been fun to see his reaction to that. :rommie:

I'm sure he'll be back eventually. And I'm sure it won't be the same old topic then either. ;)
Truly, I am sick and tired of pathetic assholes like him trying to blame 'The Man' for everything. What does he expect?
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

Deep Space 9 was by far the best TNG-era Trek show, and it featured no less than four black characters by the end of it's run:

Ben Sisko, (who was essentially Black Jesus. Kickass Black Jesus with a warship, no less.) Jake, Worf, and Cass. Hey, and there was Gramps Sisko in several episodes too, and he was awesome.

Eh, anyway...
 
Re: Have We Overcome? Not if TV Casting is an Indicator

In old mans voice....

Watch basketball, I haven't seen a white guy there is 20 years!

:rolleyes:

And the "real" Jesus was "black". So how can you have "Black Jesus"?
 
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