Which would mean that everything Kahless taught and did has no origin (are an ontological paradox) because Kahless would then just be re-enacting and repeating everything he was programmed with and learned in the 24th century. Defeating the whole point of Kahless being some pioneer of Klingon culture.
Seriously, where are the Klingons??
- Thread starter Roald
- Start date
Klingons immediately after the Burn.
Screaming Klingon: AAARRRGHHH!!!
(distress message replaced by calm Klingon officer)
Klog: This is Brigadier Klog, speaking for the High Command. There has been an incident on Qo'noS. However everything is under control. We have no need for assistance. Obey stipulations and remain outside the Qo'noS system. This transmission ends n--
Kovich: Uh, you do know that our dilithium exploded too and probably everyone else's? That it's not just you?
Klog: Oh.
Screaming Klingon: AAARRRGHHH!!!
(distress message replaced by calm Klingon officer)
Klog: This is Brigadier Klog, speaking for the High Command. There has been an incident on Qo'noS. However everything is under control. We have no need for assistance. Obey stipulations and remain outside the Qo'noS system. This transmission ends n--
Kovich: Uh, you do know that our dilithium exploded too and probably everyone else's? That it's not just you?
Klog: Oh.
I don't think he was saying that at all. What I got out of his post was that ENT showed a more believable 'primitive' technology than DSC does. (I mean, c'mon. DSC even has holodecks.) He's not advocating that SNW look like a '60's show.
Disco had a primitive holodeck that was mainly for training, only getting a full one in moving to the 32nd century. And TAS showed there was a full holodeck, called recreation room, on the 1701 so presumably it was always there even in TOS.
Strangely enough, the recent duotronics advances by Daystrom mentioned in TOS probably could explain the difference between SNW/Disco and TOS. I guess Daystrom just designed duotronics to look really primitive or something and since it was only invented in 2243, it's possible that April/Pike's Enterprise wasn't fitted with it and only got added in by Kirk's time.
The problem is that everyone in TNG acts like the holodeck is a new technology that they are constantly in awe of.
Don’t get me wrong: while I’m a huge fan of TOS and TNG, I’m not arguing that they are dated. Which is why DSC should have been a reboot rather than something shoehorned into such a dated continuity.
That actually sounds about right assuming the Klingons were still space vikings at the time of the burn
And everyone also acts like they've never heard of an android before despite them running around in TOS and Kirk's mission supposedly being historic in-universe. Wouldn't be the first continuity error in Trek.
Riker: I didn't believe these simulations could be this real.
For all we know he was talking about the resolution or something. The holograms on Disco in the 23rd century were pretty blurry and the ones in TAS were, well, animated.
I believe Enterprise shows they had joined the Federation before the Burn. That doesn't rule them out still being space vikings, but just saying
I gather that Roddenberry intended TNG to be a soft reboot, only loosely consistent with TOS and throwing out or updating whatever parts of it he was unsatisfied with. Even then, he felt that TOS was dated by its technology and attitudes and deserved to be modernized. But once he was out of the picture and fans-turned-pros started joining the writing staff, they started bringing in more TOS nods and treating the modern shows as direct, literal sequels to the original.
Generally, the original creator of a franchise wants to keep it moving forward and innovating, but once its fans take over its writing, they're driven more by nostalgia and tie it more strongly to its past. Similar things happened with modern Doctor Who, and with Marvel Comics when childhood fans started writing the books and bringing back original team members who'd long since moved on or resetting heroes to status quos they'd long since outgrown.
It's not that everyone acts like they've never heard of an android before; it's that everyone is in awe of how sophisticated Data is in comparison to other androids, especially since he was built by one eccentric old man rather than a team of scientists or aliens.
Yes, I agree with you. However, I think DSC's inherent problem was that they wanted to create something completely different from TOS while at the same time being mandated to advertise it as being in the same continuity as TOS solely in order to pander to more viewers who might not necessarily have watched the show otherwise. Essentially they were using TOS as a crutch because they didn't think their own show could stand on its own. And while that is entirely my own speculation, it doesn't really fill one with confidence that they didn't think their own product was good enough to stand on its own without help.
Pretty sure I never said it needs to look exactly like TOS...
You're making the common mistake of confusing production design with narrative. Bryan Fuller was a big TOS fan, and his original plan was to do a seasonal-anthology series that interwove through the Trek timeline, starting pre-TOS and jumping forward every year; but CBS didn't want that and insisted on an ongoing series set pre-TOS. It was always, always meant to be part of existing Trek canon. But of course they updated the production design to suit modern audiences' expectations and the higher budget and technology, just as TMP's makers did in 1979, and just as TOS's own makers would've gladly done given the money and resources to do so. And of course they tweaked the less important details of continuity to suit the needs of their narrative, because writers and filmmakers understand that continuity is a tool in the kit, a means toward the end of telling an entertaining story, and ultimately secondary to that end. Look at any long-running series and you can see how it plays fast and loose with the details of its continuity. Marvel Comics has constantly updated its timeframe, pretending that events that originally happened in the 1960s were just 10-15 years before whenever the present is. The original Planet of the Apes films rewrote their timeline with every sequel, because none of the first four movies was made to allow for a sequel and so they kept having to retcon things. It's the rule, not the exception. Everything in fiction is illusion and pretense, continuity no less than anything else.
So do the characters on Lower Decks, despite the fact there is nothing new about the holodecks at all in the time period that show takes place in.
People now can also be blown away by crappy game graphics because they don't know better while others are like, 'these graphics suck, this is nothing new.' People do this every generation of games. People who have never put on a VR headset are usually pretty blown away by any VR they see the first time, no matter the objective quality or advancement. It's pretty acceptable that people do this in the future.
So did TAS.
The ones in DSC Season 1 looked primitive compared to TAS and TNG.
And that's how the TNG characters acted towards the holodeck.
That was my point. CBS felt they needed the show to be shoehorned into TOS when they could just as easily have called it a reboot.
I'll have to take your word for that, as I haven't seen LD past the first episode.
So? The technology was the same. It sure looked like a holodeck simulation to me.
Not sure what your point is here.
The Klingons declared war on dilithium after the burn, believing dilithium to have purposely self exploded in a declaration of war. They all went to the dilithium mines of Rura Penthe and have been hacking at the crystal remains there with bat'leths for the past 100 years. Now that the Burn has been fixed, Admiral Vance and President Rillak just don't have the heart to tell the Klingons the "Great Dilithium Hunt" is pointless.
No, you're twisting what I said and completely distorting its meaning to fit your prejudice. As I said, Bryan Fuller, the creator of the show, always intended it to be part of Trek canon. It was his idea to do a pre-TOS show. He never wanted it to be a reboot. The only change CBS insisted on was keeping it permanently pre-TOS instead of just setting the first season there as Fuller intended. (Although they eventually realized it was better to jump it into the future anyway, so in a sense, Fuller got what he wanted.)
Can the snarkiness.
You don't have to do a reboot every time you change the sheets on the bed. Superman existed from 1938 to 1986 without a reboot. The creators made adjustments along the way adding and subtracting elements as needed for various reasons. Superman's WWII adventures just stop being mentioned as real time moved away from the 1940s. Superboy was inserted into continuity in late 1940s. His costume underwent changes as did his Kryptonian name. Minor tweeks were made like the Daily Planet and Perry White.
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