Spoilers Section 31 General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter F. King Daniel
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Did she change?I guess "Space Hitler" is often seen as over the top, but how would people feel about "Space Putin" leading a Trek movie?
And Georgiou was Putin x 1000
That's the more important question.
Otherwise might as well drag her out back and shoot her down the way people talk about it...
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Except this time they're purposely flirting with fascism in an environment where fascism and nationalism are on the rise. If it's not something strong enough that repels the fascist narrative, then it's propaganda, and that is something we should be aware of. I don't want Star Trek platforming fascism and fascists as something worth exploring because it might be for "the greater good."
You might feel I'm reading too much into it, but I feel there are people minimizing the harm it could cause. We live in a culture of monkey see, monkey do. The examples I gave earlier show how media presentation can either harm or help movements, and Star Trek is no different from that.
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"Shoot her" is a million light years away from "don't let her be a representative of appealing fascism."
I don't fear it from Star Trek. If people can watch and celebrate Breaking Bad or Sopranos and Squid Game and the like then I feel that people can, in the supposedly more enlightened audience of Star Trek, distinguish it. And those who are pro-fascist are going to find meaning that supports their message regardless, and do so all the time with Trek if it suits their purpose.
I just don't agree. At this point it pretty much assumes the audience is stupid and will blindly follow orders.
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Breaking Bad, and Squid Game are anti-capitalist shows that expose systemic inequality and oppression. The violence used emphasizes that. There was a time when Star Trek did the same thing. Season 2 of Picard tried to touch on it, much to the frustration of many of its viewers. Season 3 has not followed in its footsteps.
That makes the Section 31 movie an unknown. Again, I believe concern is warranted.
It doesn't assume the audience is stupid, but the audience is malleable. No one is immune to propaganda.
Maybe Trek will do it again. I doubt it.
The people who believe it already do. Nothing will change that. So, if this show, which is supposedly unpopular, and on a small streaming platform, decides to experiment with showing Georgiou as a changed person I welcome it. And if we have to condemn her actions as wrong then I welcome that too because shows engagement, not stupidity and not malleability.
Maybe I've been working too closely with kids but the kids I work with are usually questioning authority not blindstepping following it.
This just reminds of Mission: Impossible, James Bond, Alias, Deus Ex, and all the other conspiracy type media that's been around for ages now. I don't fear it.
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Kids are much better at filtering out propaganda than adults. They have weaknesses, of course, because they're so young they trust authorities that maybe they shouldn't trust so that direct statements are met with credibility, but their questioning and curious nature acts as a strong defense against more covert methods that would otherwise fool adults.
Adults are far more inflexible, not toward propaganda, but toward the idea that they might be wrong about something. When it comes to propaganda, most adults aren't even aware they're processing it. Perception is reality for most adults, and the idea that something they love and support could possibly have negative connotations is a frightful thing, it makes them uncomfortable.
Again, citing Picard season 2, when there were people angry because US border patrol was portrayed as this oppressive arm of the US government violating human rights. Some thought it was cartoonishly evil, not realizing that there are stories every day where border patrol agents engage in such tactics and much, much worse. The idea that they were part of a system that would condone such cruelty was beyond their comfort zones. We're talking full grown adults here, who would otherwise know better.
Then this is an opportunity. I welcome it.
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Assuming they take the path condemning Section 31 as a useless, hateful, dangerous organization that needs destroyed, I would agree. If, however, it ends up as I mentioned before, that it's a well-intentioned organization with a few "bad apples," that Georgiou "reforms" the system by removing those bad apples, then the show will just make fascism more appealing, like police dramas make the police look far more competent and virtuous than they are.
That is the concern.
Star Trek doesn't have that pull any more.
At this point I just don't agree that about being concerned. But, then I find most shows to be uninteresting propaganda pieces so many I don't see the propaganda as much because I just refuse to watch.
Great news!! I adore Michelle and she stole virtually every scene she was in on DSC—she was missed terribly. Enough with this “Space Hitler” shit; as noted, it comes from the very same people who’d likely say Garak was their favourite Trek character (or Dukat back in the day, he was extremely popular among fans back in the 90’s).
I actually think it’s a great choice for this to be a movie rather than series. I’m not a great S31 fan but I’m excited to see where they go with it. While the fans will bitch, and they will unless this features a parade of LEGACY CHARACTERS and ships with LCARS and callbacks to various random episodes…this will nevertheless bring a lot of outside interest to Trek. Guarantee people will recognise Yeoh and happily invest a couple of hours in a new Trek film even if they aren’t yet diehard fans. Trek needs this new blood, new energy and creative angles.
I actually think it’s a great choice for this to be a movie rather than series. I’m not a great S31 fan but I’m excited to see where they go with it. While the fans will bitch, and they will unless this features a parade of LEGACY CHARACTERS and ships with LCARS and callbacks to various random episodes…this will nevertheless bring a lot of outside interest to Trek. Guarantee people will recognise Yeoh and happily invest a couple of hours in a new Trek film even if they aren’t yet diehard fans. Trek needs this new blood, new energy and creative angles.
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I disagree. Star Trek still has a lot of pull. It's not Star Wars level of popular, but it still has a strong effect on people, especially in the sciences.
It will still affect you even if you never watch, because other people do.
I'd love to see evidence of that.
Not in the way you think it will. And I'll leave it at that because this will discuss real world politics and I'm not going down that road.
If it is a post-Picard time frame, it would be fun to have Worf, Bashir and Garek as part of the team (although maybe Robinson wouldn’t be up for it, he’s got to be in his eighties now).
The meltdowns of the 25th Century promoters might be entertaining at least.
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You're on a Star Trek board right now, in a Star Trek forum, talking about an up and coming Star Trek movie derived from a current Star Trek series that is on air next to 4 other Star Trek series all hinging upon 13 movies and 5 previous franchise shows built upon 50+ years.
I suppose what you want are numbers, though.
https://trekmovie.com/2023/04/14/pi...eries-to-break-into-streaming-top-10-ranking/
https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2021/09/star-trek-by-the-numbers/
https://www.giantfreakinrobot.com/ent/star-trek-popularity.html
There are still hundreds of conventions every year from the very large to the very local.
There are comic books, cards, board games, video games, apparel, and merchandise out the ever loving ass.
Star Trek is translated into dozens of languages in hundreds of countries around the world.
People still go to university to get degrees in the sciences, engineering, some join the military, all based on their inspiration from Star Trek, I am certain people in this very thread.
Honestly, your statement seems kind of facetious given where we are, and the history of Star Trek up until now.
It has always been about real world politics. Star Trek has always been invested in real world politics.
I share the concerns about Trek making fascism look cool. However, I think the ship has sailed in some ways as Trek has already been glamorizing things it shouldn't be glamorizing.
Most viewers are not in an immediate position to become fascist leaders even if they wanted to. It's just not a position that's easily accessible and the closest you're going to get is attending an alt-right rally, and any further than that and you'll get arrested, as seen in January 6.
However, Trek has been glamorizing drinking and smoking, which ARE more realistically accessible to viewers. Drunkenness and drunk crimes happen all the time, even with our tech people do not have internal blood alcohol meters. Smoking has made a comeback with vapes, etc. All can cause harm to health that aren't immediately apparent. Yet the macho Rios is seen with a cigar, and they even go so far as to describe a macho "heroic" death with a cigar in hand or some nonsense. The Trek characters are always in the Ten Forward bar, and I don't think they're drinking lemonade.
Are these depictions actually illegal? No of course not. But I do feel it's counterintiutive to the idealistic future that Trek is supposed to represent, where people shouldn't have the need for smoking and alcohol. Yes there's the Raffi character supposedly as a warning but that's undermined if you make smoking look cool with Rios in literally the next scene.
Most viewers are not in an immediate position to become fascist leaders even if they wanted to. It's just not a position that's easily accessible and the closest you're going to get is attending an alt-right rally, and any further than that and you'll get arrested, as seen in January 6.
However, Trek has been glamorizing drinking and smoking, which ARE more realistically accessible to viewers. Drunkenness and drunk crimes happen all the time, even with our tech people do not have internal blood alcohol meters. Smoking has made a comeback with vapes, etc. All can cause harm to health that aren't immediately apparent. Yet the macho Rios is seen with a cigar, and they even go so far as to describe a macho "heroic" death with a cigar in hand or some nonsense. The Trek characters are always in the Ten Forward bar, and I don't think they're drinking lemonade.
Are these depictions actually illegal? No of course not. But I do feel it's counterintiutive to the idealistic future that Trek is supposed to represent, where people shouldn't have the need for smoking and alcohol. Yes there's the Raffi character supposedly as a warning but that's undermined if you make smoking look cool with Rios in literally the next scene.
I'm happy to see Georgiou again, but I wish we were seeing Captain Georgiou instead of Empress Georgiou. I always thought Prime Georgiou made a great captain.
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