Season 2 an overall improvement?

[Alan Roi]

As I've mentioned before, though, "what it is" isn't some obvious given thing. It's very much in the eye of the beholder (especially for a show like DSC that's still trying to find its way), and deciding for yourself "what it is" in order to enjoy it may actually be something you can't do without, dare I say, "preconceived notions."

From my experience online since the beginning of DISCO, it is these preconceived notions that have and are still preventing many people from being able to examine the show on anything more than the most superficial level. And their behavior reminded me of the quote from the Father from Bend it Like Beckham, who had given up cricket because he could not play it on his terms as a punishment toward the British who he felt weren't treating him with respect (as many disgruntled fans believed the producers of Disco were to them).

"I never played cricket again," he mourns. "And who did that hurt? Me!!"

 

[MakeshiftPython]

The good old days when one could get enough channels for $90/mo, with box at no additional charge, instead of the rental for the modem nowadays.

BillJ already pointed out the cost of sufficiently fast broadband plus number of services, so it is conclusively more expensive compared to back then. It's been pointed out before.

It's all about spending your money smartly. With my internet bill and streaming subscriptions, I only have to pay $75/mo, having bought my own modem years ago as opposed to renting. The only time I ever subscribed to a cable television service was two years ago. I cancelled it after a month. So many channels, yet most of them are useless. I don't miss the days of channel surfing. The only "live" broadcasting I'll now get is when I occasionally attach my antenna to my TV. The biggest advantage in my opinion is that I can watch these streaming shows on my own time instead of the broadcasted schedule. I don't immediately watch a new DISCO episode when it's available. Most times I'd see it the day after.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

From my experience online since the beginning of DISCO, it is these preconceived notions that have and are still preventing many people from being able to examine the show on anything more than the most superficial level.

I notice that a lot, particularly with those who grew up with the Berman style of production and presentation, which is why so many of them watch THE ORVILLE as MacFarlane really nails down that formula with the pacing, camerawork, production design, etc.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I've noticed that generalizing groups of fans based on a few subjective metrics leads to incomplete and insufficient conclusions.

 

[BillJ]

I notice that a lot, particularly with those who grew up with the Berman style of production and presentation, which is why so many of them watch THE ORVILLE as MacFarlane really nails down that formula with the pacing, camerawork, production design, etc.

I watch The Orville because it is fun, and they are people I don't mind spending an hour with even when the episode isn't the best (not something I could say during the Berman years). I watch Discovery because it is part of the Star Trek brand.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I've noticed that generalizing groups of fans based on a few subjective metrics leads to incomplete and insufficient conclusions.

There's a reason many of them say "it feels like Trek". THE ORVILLE hits that sweet spot, with all those components I mentioned above executed in such a manner, I don't blame those that feel that way watching it. Watching it myself, I understood why. MacFarlane nailed it. When fans complain of the technical filmmaking of DISCOVERY and then praise THE ORVILLE's, it's hard to not consider that may be the conclusion.

I watch The Orville because it is fun, and they are people I don't mind spending an hour with even when the episode isn't the best (not something I could say during the Berman years). I watch Discovery because it is part of the Star Trek brand.

That's good and all, but I was mainly commenting on the production style, not the likability of characters that keep you hooked.

 

[Hythlodeus]

I agree that Orville gives you the warm, cozy feeling of nostalgia which Discovery doesn't. Then again, Discovery doesn't have to. It is modern day prestige television not a trip down nostalgia lane. There is room for both in my life. I watch Orville for the sense of almost deja vu when it comes to storytelling, a reminder of my youth when shows like that were still en vogue and state of the art. And I watch Discovery because I love to leave that feeling behind and watch damn good 21st century TV that is also Star Trek.
At the end of the day the situation reminds me of the time when B5 and DS9 aired, with B5 having a more mature style of storytelling than DS9 at that time. There was place for both shows. Both had their strengths, both had their weaknesses

 

[Vger23]

The reason S2 is "better than" S1 is that it wasn't a duplication of S1.

And what I mean by that is not to say that's because "S1 IS TEH SUX!!1!!" I really enjoyed S1 a lot. But, I think S2 has done an excellent job of crafting its own story, themes, and tone. And hopefully, S3 does the same. Star Trek is too played out for it to linger on formulaic, repetitive, safe, hum-drum. If S2 had been more of the same, I would have said it was weaker as such. But so far, it's charted its own course.

I enjoy Star Trek to be in a state of flux. Change it up. Give me grimdark and then give me Trouble With Tribbles...and everything in between.

The only weakness with S2 thus far (and I say this with my head, not my heart) is that it falls a little too much into the trap of "we really like these characters / actors from S1, so let's find a way to weave them back onto the story." My heart loves it, because I really like Tyler, L'Rell, Georgeau, etc...but I hope there's organic purpose for them being here, and it's not just the producers loving the characters and actors too much.

We shall see!

 

[Vger23]

I agree that Orville gives you the warm, cozy feeling of nostalgia which Discovery doesn't. Then again, Discovery doesn't have to. It is modern day prestige television not a trip down nostalgia lane. There is room for both in my life. I watch Orville for the sense of almost deja vu when it comes to storytelling, a reminder of my youth when shows like that were still en vogue and state of the art. And I watch Discovery because I love to leave that feeling behind and watch damn good 21st century TV that is also Star Trek.
At the end of the day the situation reminds me of the time when B5 and DS9 aired, with B5 having a more mature style of storytelling than DS9 at that time. There was place for both shows. Both had their strengths, both had their weaknesses

Agree.

They're two shows written and produced with the same DNA, but coming at the material from very different angles.

If you can put aside prejudices, preconceptions, etc. they compliment each other very well. If not, it's just another reason for line-drawing and comparisons.

They definitely both have their weaknesses. Orville is tightly written week-to-week and is generally fun, but is very derivative and doesn't invoke any passion or excitement whatsoever. Discovery is more sloppily executed at times, but stirs genuine emotion and reaction that is lasting, and does a lot of risk-taking.

I like them both. They both could be a lot better, too.

 

[Hythlodeus]

they compliment each other very well.

yep. this can't be said enough

 

[Hythlodeus]

also: kudos to Jonathan Frakes, who directed two Orville and two Discovery episodes, the first two in a very static, old fashioned style, the last two in a very dynamic, contemporary style, knowing what is needed for each show and delivering exactly that. That's remarkable adaptability

 

[Visitor1982]

For me, season 2 is really an improvement. For the first time I seem to be really invested in these characters. That never really happend on Enterprise f.e. Both episode 4 and 5 made me teary eyed, which for me is the way to know if I'm invested in a show or not. That never happened during season 1.

 

[donners22]

From my experience online since the beginning of DISCO, it is these preconceived notions that have and are still preventing many people from being able to examine the show on anything more than the most superficial level.

That is all too familiar from the Kelvin films. It's frustrating to see people say that they have no underlying themes, aren't true to Gene's Vision (TM), etc when Beyond - as but one example - is centred around cooperation and the value of diversity.

 

[Infern0]

Season 2 is an improvement and I hope it continues to improve in season 3

A few more character driven episodes wouldn't go amiss, get the mycelial network out of the picture and get back to some good old fashioned deep space exploring.

 

[BillJ]

It is modern day prestige television...

It isn't very good when compared to much of "modern day prestige television". It seems to lack the guts to tell stories like Game of Thrones, Westworld, The Handmaid's Tale, Counterpart, The Man in the High Castle and others.

It simply isn't very good Star Trek, nor is it very good modern drama. It seems to want to have it both ways, but doesn't have the writers capable of succeeding at either.

 

[Alan Roi]

I no4tice that a lot, particularly with those who grew up with the Berman style of production and presentation, which is why so many of them watch THE ORVILLE as MacFarlane really nails down that formula with the pacing, camerawork, production design, etc.

It isn't very good when compared to much of "modern day prestige television". It seems to lack the guts to tell stories like Game of Thrones, Westworld, The Handmaid's Tale, Counterpart, The Man in the High Castle and others.

Yes, the Orville nails 1987 TV filmmaking. Of course that's as much of a compliment as saying it reminds you of how great the A Team was. Copying the techniques of a show as repetitive as TNG was is not as great an accomplishment as you might thin, especially given the money at Seth's disposal and how many people he's hired from the Berman series to work on his show. And the fact that is the point of the show in the first place.

As for your list of 'prestige' shows, I can't agree with your overall assessment. I've watched all of them with the exception of The Handmaid's tale, and IMHO, Discovery's best eps are as effecting as their best, and each and every series you mention equally has episodes that fall short as Disco does occasionally. Yes, I will agree the Discovery isn't yet as consistently good as the absolute most remarkable in recent years where it comes to boundary pushing, say Legion, Sense8, 12 Monkeys or Black Sails, but none on your list do either on a consistent basis compared to these series, IMHO. I would say, however, is Magic to Drive the Sanest Man Mad ranks among the individual best episodes I have watched in the last few years.

And in comparison to the series I would entitle at the very least Star Trek inspired in recent years, of which I would consider 3 television series fitting the bill to significant degrees (Killjoys, The Last Ship and the Orville), none of them are even close to as well crafted as Discovery is, as Star Trek inspired series in general, or as good Star Trek in particular.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I watch The Orville because it is fun, and they are people I don't mind spending an hour with even when the episode isn't the best (not something I could say during the Berman years). I watch Discovery because it is part of the Star Trek brand.

Good for you, and I mean it. I'm not being sarcastic or dismissive or anything. I just...I can't warm to anything MacFarlane does because to me, he is a plagiarist and just plain unfunny (even though I think he, as a person, is decent and intelligent). The Orville seems so rehashed from everything that's come before and, from what I've seen (which wasn't much, admittedly, so my perception might be mistaken) pushes no boundaries. But that's my opinion and not a quality seal. I think it's great when people can enjoy many things. It certainly makes life more entertaining. I would just rather watch TNG than a copy of B&B Trek with a different label slapped on it. Am I misjudging the show? So many of you like it, and I just don't seem to be able to get over myself, here.

Maybe I should give this thing another shot, but MacFarlane's plagiarist antics have really turned me off his shows (also, I hate Family Guy more than I hate space nazis or Prime Universe Khan, so there XD).

 

[Alan Roi]

Good for you, and I mean it. I'm not being sarcastic or dismissive or anything. I just...I can't warm to anything MacFarlane does because to me, he is a plagiarist and just plain unfunny (even though I think he, as a person, is decent and intelligent). The Orville seems so rehashed from everything that's come before and, from what I've seen (which wasn't much, admittedly, so my perception might be mistaken) pushes no boundaries. But that's my opinion and not a quality seal. I think it's great when people can enjoy many things. It certainly makes life more entertaining. I would just rather watch TNG than a copy of B&B Trek with a different label slapped on it. Am I misjudging the show? So many of you like it, and I just don't seem to be able to get over myself, here.

Maybe I should give this thing another shot, but MacFarlane's plagiarist antics have really turned me off his shows (also, I hate Family Guy more than I hate space nazis or Prime Universe Khan, so there XD).

However, Seth isn't a great plagiarist, as even while he is copying, the duplication process still gets filtered through his brain, which makes watching Orville interesting, because it speaks to who Seth is, and why he as felt the need to make this vanity project of his. And I must say, I find it as illuminating as I do disturbing. Many it seems, don't look to deeply and find themselves satisfied with beige sets, color coded uniforms, visual and musical cues without caring to examine exactly what they are watching. To them, it's nostalgic comfort food.

 

[BillJ]

I would just rather watch TNG than a copy of B&B Trek with a different label slapped on it.

It is so much more than that. To me, it is far more daring in its subject matter than most of Star Trek.

Maybe I should give this thing another shot, but MacFarlane's plagiarist antics have really turned me off his shows

Plagiarist antics? Hollywood is chock full of copies of copies of copies of copies of things. Star Trek itself takes a lot from Forbidden Planet.

 

[Spot261]

Disturbing?