Riker to Jellico: There's no Joy. -Are you #$# kidding me?!

[sbk1234]

Can you imagine the XO of an aircraft carrier telling his captain that there is no JOY in the crew?

Quite.

Of course there's no joy. There's not SUPPOSED to be! Starfleet may not be militaristic, but it is MILITARY, and that's enough. You want joy, go on shore leave. You want a job done right, get serious!

I can hear Jellico explaining: "That's why we call it 'Starfleet', and not 'Wacky, Happy, Funtime.'"

 

[Brutal Strudel]

Realistically, Data and Picard defeated the Borg ship.

That's true, actually.

Riker was actually at the end of his rope; his only remaining idea was to plow the Enterprise into the heart of the Borg ship and hope that would work.

Somehow, I get the feeling that Riker's standing with TPTB at Starfleet really isn't all that high.

It was Riker's idea to abduct Locutus, though, wasn't it? At the very least, the mission was his call. Much as I dislike Riker, he deserves the credit.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Of course there's no joy. There's not SUPPOSED to be! Starfleet may not be militaristic, but it is MILITARY, and that's enough. You want joy, go on shore leave. You want a job done right, get serious!

I can hear Jellico explaining: "That's why we call it 'Starfleet', and not 'Wacky, Happy, Funtime.'"

I love it! And so true.

 

[SeerSGB]

Realistically, Data and Picard defeated the Borg ship.

That's true, actually.

Riker was actually at the end of his rope; his only remaining idea was to plow the Enterprise into the heart of the Borg ship and hope that would work.

Somehow, I get the feeling that Riker's standing with TPTB at Starfleet really isn't all that high.

It was Riker's idea to abduct Locutus, though, wasn't it? At the very least, the mission was his call. Much as I dislike Riker, he deserves the credit.

He might have made the call to snatch Picard/Locutus but at the point he seemed to run out of ideas. Hell it took Picard, Borgified to save his ass. My thought watching that ep: Picard, thinking "Or for fuck's sake, I get captured, violated, and surgically altered and I've still gotta bail this asshole out?"..."Sleep, Data, Sleep".

I question Riker's motives. I wonder if he was more driven by personal need for Picard than any tactical sense. After all, they could have just as easily snuck the shuttle through and beamed over a antimatter bomb to the heart of the cube or even the warp-core out of a shuttle. Anything. Stopped dead cold right there. Instead he makes a bid to save his Captain.

 

[CaptainStoner]

As someone who has previously been in the military, I've seen this misconception about Jellico before.

Yes, crewmembers are expected to perform their duties with professionalism, and their is a limit to how much they can openly complain, but a commanding officer should be very concerned about crew morale, even during times of war. A Captain should not be a dictator, but should be interested in feedback from his subordinates about conditions on the ship, as well as the job he is doing.

Ideally, officers should strive to encourage an atmosphere of mutual respect. It's not just about issuing orders left and right, and making unreasonable demands on subordinates.

Jellico made clear that he didn't care very much about the feelings of the senior officers or how the changed work shift orders he gave would affect morale. This is not being an effective Captain who cares about what is going on with the people he serves with.

Thanks for the insight the episode maes more sense when you put it like that.

That about sums up my opinion of Jellico also. Especially the part I bolded. Jellico comes in with an attitude against Riker from the getgo. People are irked that the crew gave Jellico little respect: he got what he brought.
I agree that the writing was too simplistic here, though. The "real Riker" we know would easily have been able to play the Cardassians the way Jellico did, probably even better.

 

[Can]

One point to be made....Starfleet is not the military in the sense we have it now. Aside from security of Federation they also have obligations in scientific research , discovery , exploration , diplomacy , aid etc in similar fashion and priority....So it is part time military...That was Roddonbery's vision...It is not always Enterprise's mission to blast aliens whenever there is a crisis....In "Chain of Command" although there is a military situation at hand Riker knew crew of Enterprise and Jellicho did not...It is about incompatibility of Riker and Jellicho's human management styles...Sometimes to get best performance you have to get a different tact on crew sometimes not....Neither Riker nor Jellicho could understand and worse they did not back down or compromise...Yeas in military you obey orders of your superiors but as I said Starfleet was part time military in our terms of definition

 

[BillJ]

I agree that the writing was too simplistic here, though. The "real Riker" we know would easily have been able to play the Cardassians the way Jellico did, probably even better.

But Starfleet obviously didn't have faith that Riker could pull it off. After pulling out the command chair for Riker three different times that we know of (Drake, Aries and Melbourne), they probably came to the conclusion that Riker was gun shy riding solo.

This was obviously an issue of the writers' not knowing what to do with the character post Best of Both Worlds. Plus it would have looked dumb to promote him to captain again, then return him to XO when Picard returned.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

This was obviously an issue of the writers' not knowing what to do with the character post Best of Both Worlds. Plus it would have looked dumb to promote him to captain again, then return him to XO when Picard returned.

But that is what happened...

 

[SeerSGB]

I agree that the writing was too simplistic here, though. The "real Riker" we know would easily have been able to play the Cardassians the way Jellico did, probably even better.

But Starfleet obviously didn't have faith that Riker could pull it off. After pulling out the command chair for Riker three different times that we know of (Drake, Aries and Melbourne), they probably came to the conclusion that Riker was gun shy riding solo.

This was obviously an issue of the writers' not knowing what to do with the character post Best of Both Worlds. Plus it would have looked dumb to promote him to captain again, then return him to XO when Picard returned.

One way to have take it would have been give Riker the 1701-D, Picard sits out a couple of episodes as he "decides what do with his life". Eventually Picard returns as Commodore Picard with the 1701-D as his flagship.

 

[BillJ]

I agree that the writing was too simplistic here, though. The "real Riker" we know would easily have been able to play the Cardassians the way Jellico did, probably even better.

But Starfleet obviously didn't have faith that Riker could pull it off. After pulling out the command chair for Riker three different times that we know of (Drake, Aries and Melbourne), they probably came to the conclusion that Riker was gun shy riding solo.

This was obviously an issue of the writers' not knowing what to do with the character post Best of Both Worlds. Plus it would have looked dumb to promote him to captain again, then return him to XO when Picard returned.

One way to have take it would have been give Riker the 1701-D, Picard sits out a couple of episodes as he "decides what do with his life". Eventually Picard returns as Commodore Picard with the 1701-D as his flagship.

But then you're just returning to the old dynamic of Frakes playing second fiddle to Stewart. After Best of Both Worlds one needed to be written out for the overall good of the series.

 

[Red Ranger]

I have to agree the line is kind of dopey. But I don't blame Riker much for being resentful. After all, his competency was called in question by Admiral Nechayev by bringing Jellico in to command Enterprise. Certainly, his variety of experience made him able to deal with the Cardassians. And in the end, Jellico had to admit that he had the experience necessary to implement his plan of laying the mines on the Cardassian ships. Plus, Jellico didn't seem to give a damn about his officers' experience, or willing to take their advice, with the exception of Data. After all, they were the ones most familiar with the ship. So I don't see the crew as being whiny -- just miffed at being underestimated.

 

[SeerSGB]

But Starfleet obviously didn't have faith that Riker could pull it off. After pulling out the command chair for Riker three different times that we know of (Drake, Aries and Melbourne), they probably came to the conclusion that Riker was gun shy riding solo.

This was obviously an issue of the writers' not knowing what to do with the character post Best of Both Worlds. Plus it would have looked dumb to promote him to captain again, then return him to XO when Picard returned.

One way to have take it would have been give Riker the 1701-D, Picard sits out a couple of episodes as he "decides what do with his life". Eventually Picard returns as Commodore Picard with the 1701-D as his flagship.

But then you're just returning to the old dynamic of Frakes playing second fiddle to Stewart. After Best of Both Worlds one needed to be written out for the overall good of the series.

Oh I agree, but working from the reality that you couldn't get rid of one, it's gives Riker a promotion.

Frankly, BoBW would have worked a lot better had Picard left the 1701-D to be a archeologist for the Federation- give him a small ship, a small crew. And then have him make guest appearances once a season or so. Like doing "The Chase" with Picard in Richard Galen's place-- minus the character death.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One point to be made....Starfleet is not the military in the sense we have it now. Aside from security of Federation they also have obligations in scientific research , discovery , exploration , diplomacy , aid etc in similar fashion and priority....So it is part time military...That was Roddonbery's vision...

Like I said: Starfleet may not be militaristic, but it is a military.

The fact that Starfleet undertakes missions of diplomacy, exploration and scientific research (which modern day military forces also do), does not change the essential fact that it is still a military.

That being said, it does not necessarily mean that Jellico was *always* right, or Riker was *always* wrong. All we know is what is appropriate for this specific situation. In THAT case, Jellico was clearly in the right, since he (as an expert on Cardassians) was brought in to deal with this situation. He clearly knew best. The crew should have listened to him.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

Certainly, his [Riker's] variety of experience made him able to deal with the Cardassians.

Based on this episode, I'm not at all convinced of that. He couldn't even deal with Jellico...and they were on the same side.

 

[SeerSGB]

Certainly, his [Riker's] variety of experience made him able to deal with the Cardassians.

Based on this episode, I'm not at all convinced of that. He couldn't even deal with Jellico...and they were on the same side.

The minute they showed evidence that they had Picard, Riker would have risked the whole negotiation.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

See: Best of Both Worlds.

"Let me risk everything to rescue my CO, even though it may not work!"

 

[Mark Antony]

What was Jellico doing during Best Of Both Worlds?

 

[Chaos Descending]

What was Jellico doing during Best Of Both Worlds?

Probably somewhere else following his orders, like a good officer.

 

[Mark Antony]

From Memory Alpha: Jellico was back home at earth screaming at his wife's cats and having a nervous breakdown because they wouldn't do what he was telling them to do.

Meanwhile, Captain Riker and the finest crew in Starfleet were saving humankind from utter annihilation.

 

[A beaker full of death]

One point to be made....Starfleet is not the military in the sense we have it now.

In fact, it is exactly the military in the sense we have it now.

Aside from security of Federation they also have obligations in scientific research , discovery , exploration , diplomacy , aid etc in similar fashion and priority....

Exactly.

So it is part time military...

That's like "part time pregnant."
Really, people, if you're going to talk about a topic, invest a few seconds to educate yourself first.