Riker to Jellico: There's no Joy. -Are you #$# kidding me?!

[Jonas Grumby]

Eh. I would hope that the "flagship" would have the best of the best.

I guess it depends on that old argument: Is Starfleet a military organization or not?

See, in strict navy parlance, a "flagship" is the ship in a battle group where the overall battle group commander is based. But the Enterprise isn't a battle group flagship; it's the "Federation flagship." But clearly neither the leaders of the Federation nor the top commanders of Starfleet are based aboard her.

Maybe the "Federation flagship" is just a fancy showboat for ferrying dignataries around and attending diplomatic ceremonies (they certainly did a lot of that kind of thing). Wouldn't necessarily want to waste your best crew on a glorified taxi.

OTOH, the civilian use of the term "flagship" usually does mean "the best of the best" (although almost always referring to something other than actual ships). But I just have to wonder (at least, based sole on this episode) how "the best of the best" ever ended up with such a piss-poor first officer.

 

[JarodRussell]

Hmmm...now that is a thinker. Maybe they weren't the worse, but not the best of the best either.

Eh. I would hope that the "flagship" would have the best of the best.

Not necessarily. They might be great from a PR standpoint, but not top of the heap in the down-and-dirty real work of the fleet.

Yet it was mentioned several times that the Galaxy class was the fastest, most sophisticated, blablabla ship class in the entire fleet. So I guess it is a mix between PR and valid technical specs.
It also seems that because of the likes of Geordi and Data the Enterprise is the best functioning Galaxy class.

 

[donners22]

To me it was another example of how the TNG regulars circled the wagons when anyone new came aboard.

Rather ironic, given that was how they tended to behave off-screen according to many reports.

 

[jwb]

It's fun to hear the different opinions here. Personally, I really love this episode. I can see both sides of it: why Jellico does what he does, and why the Enterprise crew reacts as it does. The writer was savy enough to give everyone good points. I especially love how the new Captain has a son who sends him artwork, which not only illustrates a difference between the new Captain and Picard but also humanizes the guy.

I've been on both sides of it; having to get people to do things they don't want to as part of their jobs and having a supervisor give me unrealistic demands that set me up for failure; where I want to quote Geordi and say, "I don't mind hard work, but the man's got to give me time to do the work!"

The great thing is Part 1 and Part 2 of Chain of Command are so different yet they are each excellent in their own ways and work well together. The only let down is that budget problems didn't allow them to do much between the Enterprise and the Cardassians in part 2.

-jwb-
jwbraun.com

 

[SeerSGB]

Eh. I would hope that the "flagship" would have the best of the best.

Not necessarily. They might be great from a PR standpoint, but not top of the heap in the down-and-dirty real work of the fleet.

Yet it was mentioned several times that the Galaxy class was the fastest, most sophisticated, blablabla ship class in the entire fleet. So I guess it is a mix between PR and valid technical specs.
It also seems that because of the likes of Geordi and Data the Enterprise is the best functioning Galaxy class.

I had very little respect for the galaxy class during TNG. But come along DS9, Sacrifice of Angels and I got a whole new respect for 'em.

 

[ladyheather69]

Someone stated above that this is the crew of the flagship of the United Federation of Planets. Yes they should be the 'best of the best.' If this is true, then they should behave as such. They came across as whiny and pissy cause they had to change their shifts? They didn't like their new captain? Well guess what? Not everyone likes their boss, but you still have to give him/her the respect deserving of the office/position. You don't have to LIKE them, but you have to follow orders.
My problem is that the crew did have a valid point in that changing shifts was going to cause problems,yes, but Riker could have handled telling Jellico that in a much more constructive, professional manner. The way he did it came across as whiny and childish.

And as far as Troi wearing a standard uniform, I liked that change too. I think in earlier episodes the writers had her wear a non standard uniform to make the crew feel more at ease in talking to her. I understand their reasoning, but if this crew is 'the best of the best' then it shouldn't matter what she was wearing

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I'm still not convinced that changing the shifts would have been such a major problem. I would assume that Picard, or any CO, would change the shifts based on the situation, such as an extended assignment to a planet, or whatever.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Side note: When Jellico was talking to Admiral Nechayev and they talk about "our friends", who are they talking about? Nechayev says something about "Have you heard from our friends?" Jellico says no, and Nechayev replies "Let me know if you do." Who does she mean? That was a rather cryptic scene. Were they talking about Picard, Crusher and Worf? And just didn't say so in case their communications were being monitored?

Oh, by the way, Nechayev was smokin' hot. I bet she's a real screamer, if you know what I mean...

 

[Dancing Doctor]

They might have also been talking about the Cardassians...

I wish they had shown Nechayev more. She was one of my favorite Admirals.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

I'm still not convinced that changing the shifts would have been such a major problem.

It really should not have been. Not to mention that overcoming problems should be at the very heart of what these people do.

I can't imagine what Jellico must have been thinking. "Jesus, they're all stamping their feet and threatening to hold their breaths until they turn blue just because I asked them to change the shift rotation? What are they going to do if I have to ask them to make a suicide run on a Cardassian warship!"

 

[Dancing Doctor]

I'm still not convinced that changing the shifts would have been such a major problem.

It really should not have been. Not to mention that overcoming problems should be at the very heart of what these people do.

Exactly!

I can't imagine what Jellico must have been thinking. "Jesus, they're all stamping their feet and threatening to hold their breaths until they turn blue just because I asked them to change the shift rotation? What are they going to do if I have to ask them to make a suicide run on a Cardassian warship!"

It's sort of like when a child's parents get divorced or separated, and each develop their own routine. The child, with whichever parent has primary custody, gets used to one routine, and then they're in for a shock when they go to the other parent who does things totally different.

 

[milo bloom]

Sorry, changing an entire crews' sleep patterns just before a possible major military engagement is a poor idea. And I stand by my assessment that the writers made Jellico too hard, and the crew too soft, in an attempt to artificially inflate the drama in this episode.

If Riker truly had a problem with changing the shifts, he should have been able to back up his argument with data from Starfleet behavior specialists, and Jellico should have been intelligent enough to know if the XO brings you data like that, you should at least give it a look before going ahead and doing what you want anyways. There's a lot to enjoy in this episode, but it could have been a lot better if the characters hadn't been rewritten to fit the problem of the week.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

They might have also been talking about the Cardassians...

I don't think so. Nechayev said that she "would very much like to see them again" or something like that.

 

[Dancing Doctor]

They might have also been talking about the Cardassians...

I don't think so. Nechayev said that she "would very much like to see them again" or something like that.

Ah. I had forgotten about that line.

Then it probably was the Starfleet intelligence team led by Picard.

 

[indolover]

Riker was at fault here. And yes, blame is complex and not black and white, but I don't think Jellico was being the prick in this case:

- Riker is the XO of Starfleet's flagship. The most important and (in TNG's time, to our knowledge) the most powerful vessel in arguably the most powerful military of any Alpha Quadrant power (Ok, there were the Klingons and Romulans, but we never knew if their fleets were larger). So, since he is that high of a position in Starfleet, he should know better professionalism than he showed.

- The crew also acted like babies. COs are individuals, with their own unique personalities and attitudes. All 5 Trek Captains have had similar command styles, in that they are personable with their crew, put them at ease, and try to earn their respect. Sisko and Janeway even personally mixed with them, which Picard did not do much, but Picard still was like a wise father figure to them, since all of them at one point went to him for advice/counsel in things.

But just because Jellico has a different approach, it doesn't mean that the crew should moan and whine.

The ep overall is a classic one, but I think the Riker character came out looking badly in this one. What if Jellico had an Admiral friend in Starfleet Command and said 'you know that Riker dude who serves under Picard? What a baby! Do you really think Starfleet should give him a command? Why should he be given his own ship, if he cannot adjust to differences in people's styles?'

What if Jellico's Admiral friend tells other flag officers/admiralty this, and Riker only ever got to serve as an XO, or in a strategically unimportant backwater like DS9 before Sisko discovered the wormhole. Sisko was given the assignment since it would have been his first true command, and he lacked at that point extensive command experience. Riker could seriously have screwed up his career by being pissy with Jellico.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Sorry, changing an entire crews' sleep patterns just before a possible major military engagement is a poor idea. And I stand by my assessment that the writers made Jellico too hard, and the crew too soft, in an attempt to artificially inflate the drama in this episode.

Um, under the 3 shift rotation the shift crews are working 8 hours and are off 16 hours. Under the 4 shift rotation it is 6 at hours at work and 18 hours off, how is getting two extra hours off a bad thing?

If Riker truly had a problem with changing the shifts, he should have been able to back up his argument with data from Starfleet behavior specialists, and Jellico should have been intelligent enough to know if the XO brings you data like that, you should at least give it a look before going ahead and doing what you want anyways.

1) You assume such data would exist, seeing as Sisko didn't have a problem switching to a 4 shift rotation at a time when DS9 was under threat of possible Dominion attack all the time (hence the upgrades to give it a butload of weapons) this seems unlikely.

2) Jellico may have been using a 4 shift rotation on the Cairo without any problems what so ever, which makes it look like Riker would be giving him data that says that a mere Excelsior-class ship could do something that Starfleet's mighty Galaxy-class flagship can't. Not exactly a confidence builder.

 

[milo bloom]

Sorry, changing an entire crews' sleep patterns just before a possible major military engagement is a poor idea. And I stand by my assessment that the writers made Jellico too hard, and the crew too soft, in an attempt to artificially inflate the drama in this episode.

Um, under the 3 shift rotation the shift crews are working 8 hours and are off 16 hours. Under the 4 shift rotation it is 6 at hours at work and 18 hours off, how is getting two extra hours off a bad thing?

If Riker truly had a problem with changing the shifts, he should have been able to back up his argument with data from Starfleet behavior specialists, and Jellico should have been intelligent enough to know if the XO brings you data like that, you should at least give it a look before going ahead and doing what you want anyways.

1) You assume such data would exist, seeing as Sisko didn't have a problem switching to a 4 shift rotation at a time when DS9 was under threat of possible Dominion attack all the time (hence the upgrades to give it a butload of weapons) this seems unlikely.

2) Jellico may have been using a 4 shift rotation on the Cairo without any problems what so ever, which makes it look like Riker would be giving him data that says that a mere Excelsior-class ship could do something that Starfleet's mighty Galaxy-class flagship can't. Not exactly a confidence builder.

I'm not going to disagree with your points, but my point is that these are the types of discussions we should have seen Riker and Jellico having. That's why I say it's a problem of the writing.

 

[Shatnertage]

I'm not going to disagree with your points, but my point is that these are the types of discussions we should have seen Riker and Jellico having. That's why I say it's a problem of the writing.

I see your point. Even in a two-parter, time was at a premium, and they had to make decisions about what to show and what not to show.

This is one of those episodes, like A Night in Sickbay, that I'd be willing to believe were set in a mirror universe, where the crew acts differently for no good reason.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

The problem is, we know the TNG crew pretty well at this point. We know they aren't whiners, are super professional and are basically all workaholics. So I think we have to assume they have a point about Jellico doing a crappy job.

This comes up every so often and I always see a lot of people taking Jellico's side. If you do that, you are basically saying that all of these characters are just worthless losers. And we know that isn't true. So why not give them the benefit of the doubt? These people are serving on the Federation flagship. They are supposed to represent some of the best and brighest of the Federation. They aren't going to act like a bunch of babies for no reason. Jellico had no regard for crew morale, would not listen to any suggestions (as every other good Trek captain has been shown to do, whether they take the advice or not) and honestly comes off as a bit of an irrational loose cannon at times.

Jellico had no idea how to handle people correctly. He was a complete ass, shooting down his officer's suggestions in a dickish way. A friend of mine in the military told me Jellico would not inspire confidence in his men. You don't have to be their pals, but you do have to command their respect.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I always see a lot of people taking Jellico's side. If you do that, you are basically saying that all of these characters are just worthless losers.

In this episode, yes. They're not ALWAYS whiners, but there's a first time for everything. Maybe it takes a hardass like Jellico to show them the error of their ways. But the result is the same. Whether it be once, or a thousand times, there's always the potential to be a loser.