Revisiting ST-TNG...

[Warped9]

I have a hard time believing you could like that batch of episodes from the first three seasons and not be captivated by what comes in the last four years. It really is worth giving the series another try, I think -- especially if you have been able to revise your opinion of TNG so dramatically.

You might find this hard to believe, but just like in the later seasons of TNG I found quite a bit of the writing and acting in later DS9 to be...wanting.

And I can say that while I was motivated enough to buy the first four season sets of TNG I presently don't feel that motivation for DS9.

 

[Harvey]

You're right, I do find it hard to believe, especially considering how superior the acting ensemble is on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine compared to Star Trek: The Next Generation. And the writing? It only gets better in seasons 4-6 (and a some of 7).

If you don't want to buy it, Netflix won't cost you much, and if they have them at your local library, it won't cost you a thing.

 

[Warped9]

The guy who plays Garak, I've been seeing him in film and television all the way back to the '70s. Hell, he was in Dirty Harry with Eastwood in 1971. I've just never really card for him. He's okay, competent, but nothing amazing. Avery Brooks can be rather stiff and I sometimes find his acting somewhat unconvincing.

 

[Harvey]

Andrew Robinson? He's one of the best players on DS9, hands down. If you don't care for him, then maybe the series isn't for you.

 

[RAMA]

Andrew Robinson? He's one of the best players on DS9, hands down. If you don't care for him, then maybe the series isn't for you.

I think he said that. So there's no point in bothering.

The interesting thing is...the "war" seasons often had some strong individual episodes, something B5 did not. It wasn't all about the war.

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

I'll just have to make up my mind whether to revisit the show or not and then this discussion could carry over there. After all this is the TNG forum...

 

[Anwar]

And let's not forget they had been making Modern Trek for better than a decade when Voyager premiered. They should have hit a grand slam with Voyager (great premise, good cast) yet it ended up being a tepid bunt down the third-base line.

That was partially the problem, there was too much at the time and using the same people on VOY right after TNG and during DS9 meant there was creative burnout.

They should've done what Berman wanted to do and make only one show at a time.

And VOY's premise was inherently flawed, the way it was. It needed more polishing and time for the flaws to be ironed out.

 

[janedoh]

I loved TOS. As a teenager, I collected all 79 episodes onto VHS tapes in sequence, since it was on in syndication at like 2 am 5 days a week. Even when it was bad, it was fun to watch.

I didn't want to like TNG. I resisted watching, but the buzz was good about it (even in those pre-Internet days). Once I started, I found I liked it. It wasn't TOS. It was good, but in a different way. When TNG is bad, it is also dull, and I watch the clock. But when it is good, it is great. I like the ensemble cast (I didn't love all the characters, but I didn't hate any either). I like the feel of the show for the most part. I agree with Warped9, though--season 6 was hugely variable in quality, and season 7 was awful. I was very disappointed in the TNG movies, since I liked the TOS ones (except for ST V).

I didn't like DS9. I didn't like the soap opera feel to it, I found Sisko to be dull, the Ferengi to be stupid, and Bashir to be annoying (to watch, I think he was probably supposed to be an annoying character). I did kinda like the episode when Tom Riker steals the Defiant. It could have been interesting if they brought him back as a recurring character. I like the idea of seeing the road not traveled with Starfleet's poster boy.

I really WANTED to like VOY. I actually thought the premise was really interesting, but the characters were so dull. The episodes had no life. And I couldn't stand to watch Neelix at all.

I haven't watched even a single episode of ENT. I hated the premise, and the execution doesn't sound like it was good either.

I kind of don't understand all this arguing about "giving things a chance". There is plenty of room for reasonable people to disagree about whether entertainment works for them. I find my own opinion closer to Warped9 and BillJ than RAMA, especially about so-called top-10 episodes like The Inner Light and Tapestry (hated them both, and could barely sit though my one and only viewing).

 

[Joker]

STAR TREK: 1964-1991

... and to think I was almost taking you seriously.

 

[Ubik]

I have a hard time believing you could like that batch of episodes from the first three seasons and not be captivated by what comes in the last four years. It really is worth giving the series another try, I think -- especially if you have been able to revise your opinion of TNG so dramatically.

You might find this hard to believe, but just like in the later seasons of TNG I found quite a bit of the writing and acting in later DS9 to be...wanting.

And I can say that while I was motivated enough to buy the first four season sets of TNG I presently don't feel that motivation for DS9.

Ah, but that's part of the reason DS9 is a better show than TNG - there was no downturn in quality. There were fits and bumps, sure, with the 3rd season and the 2nd half of season 6 feeling particularly adrift, but overall DS9's 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th seasons are all highly successful to very large extents. In fact, the show ended on a high, and far too abruptly to many people's tastes. The show could easily have run for another season or two - there was that much material to work with. The impression one gets as the 4th and 5th seasons chug along is actually an increase in quality - momentum builds, plotlines that seemed to be separate all start to intertwine, the stakes get higher, the characters get more desperate...the show really builds.

Anyway, as you say, that's a discussion for another forum....

 

[Joker]

DS9 had settled into a pretty standard war storyline by the end that used most of the cliches from that genre.

It was okay.

 

[JRS]

When VOY premiered I tried the first few episodes then bolted. Occasionally I tried to sit through a random episode and could never tolerate more than ten minutes before my eyes would roll into the back of my head and my brain started to ache. As such I think it is among the very worst things done in Trek's name

.
I am surprised to hear you say so
In my opinion Voyager had maybe the most adventure/action than any other of the Trek-shows, particularly in the later seasons 3-7. You where missing that on TNG, after all.
Thanks for the reviews btw, Warped

 

[Holdfast]

Catching up on this thread today as I've been away on holiday this past week, I'm kind of sorry to see it finally come to an end. I've enjoyed reading the reviews, the different perspectives and the occasionally rather lively exchanges of views.

Good substantive thread, and it's reminded me of some great TNG episodes I haven't rewatched in ages. Thanks for the reviews Warped9, thanks to everyone for managing to somehow keep it more or less on track despite a couple of bumpy moments!

 

[Trekker4747]

With some notable exception I think W9 was pretty fair to the series and, more or less, is on the pulse of how I, and most fans, feel. It's often believed there's a lot of good, classic Trek, gems in S1 and S2 in spite of the muddy production values and recycled/retooled Phase 2 scripts, Seasons 3 and 4 are pretty much filled with great episodes and moments that make Trek excellent, S5 begins the slide. It has some gems but the quality can be seen fading and then S6 it loses steam (mostly from my feelings due to attention changing to DS9 and not due to lack of ideas/creativity) and S7 is just overall weak. In fact I'd mostly agree S7 is the weakest season as at least S1&2 have enough "charm" in them and "forgive" to work. S7 has no excuses to be so poor and in using grocery-store romance novel plots.

There's a few episode disagreements in there but, overall, I think he has the pulse.

On the series finale I think you have to appreciate the overall series, the characters, Q and the "series arc" in order for it to be good. It has, IMHO, the advantage of leaving the characters in a good place and showing how the series had progressed over the years and what it "could be" in the future.

The series' "arc", for my money, had always been "What humanity had become," which is what the show tries to showcase in the run that humanity had shed all of the problems it's faced with and restrained by in the 20th/21st century. The show was a little "preachy" at times and the humans come across as a bit arrogant over other races but it's still about "showing" what humans can do and accomplish if we forget all of our problems and pettiness.

In TNG the future scenes also show to not let present-day problems or differences have an impact on the future (this is mostly shown in the Worf/Riker stuff). Picard's "finest crew in the fleet" speech neat the end is also a great one to have in the show's final hour.

 

[Warped9]

Looking back over the series after watching all the episodes I can clearly see some of the things that could have been done differently. And some of those are the same as observations I had at the beginning.

The Enterprise D was way oversized. Since it was never going to fulfill the original premise of a ten to twenty year mission of deep space exploration then the inclusion of families aboard was superfluous and utterly meaningless. Their presence aboard rarely contributed anything to the series and their absence wouldn't have taken anything away from it. Indeed it's pretty much a ridiculous concept since it wasn't justified and followed through on. And, of course, no families would have meant no Wesley Crusher (at least as a boy wonder rather than perhaps a young Ensign) and that wouldn't have been of any great loss either. It would have also meant far fewer instances of family members paying a visit whenever they felt like it, and I wouldn't have missed that much either.

The role of Counselor needed to be better defined and a better actress would have been nice. I simply could never warm up to Marina Sirtis even when she had a respectable episode. I just found her ultimately whiny and annoying and not very credible.

It also would have been nice to have seen a little more variety to the Klingons and not so much of the comic opera type always spouting off about honour.

But the rest of it I'd be content to keep pretty much as is. Even the technobabble wasn't quite as bad as I recalled except for rare instances and mostly during the last two seasons.

 

[Holdfast]

The role of Counselor needed to be better defined and a better actress would have been nice.

This is probably my "one wish" for TNG too. Actually, it's not so much Marina Sirtis fault; she does fine with most of the material she's given. It's just that the material is either wacky ("the pain, the pain!") or too nebulous. The episodes where she had something substantial to do, she was able to carry the material. Perhaps a truly top-tier actress could have made even the non-lines in the more trivial episodes interesting, but I think not.

What needed to happen was for the role of Counsellor to be, as you say, better defined. Give her a more formal diplomatic role in established contact with civilisations instead of the "you baby-sit the irritating new ambassador" role she was given. And when in her therapeutic role, show her actually working as a counsellor occasionally. This was done far too rarely, IMO.

I think the writers concentrated too much on the fact she was half-Betazoid (and therefore empathic) instead of the fact that she had potentially the most interesting job on the ship (half-diplomat, half-therapist), with presumably an advanced skill-set to match. If Troi had been fully human, we'd probably have seen her used much more effectively.

 

[RAMA]

Looking back over the series after watching all the episodes I can clearly see some of the things that could have been done differently. And some of those are the same as observations I had at the beginning.

The Enterprise D was way oversized. Since it was never going to fulfill the original premise of a ten to twenty year mission of deep space exploration then the inclusion of families aboard was superfluous and utterly meaningless. Their presence aboard rarely contributed anything to the series and their absence wouldn't have taken anything away from it. Indeed it's pretty much a ridiculous concept since it wasn't justified and followed through on. And, of course, no families would have meant no Wesley Crusher (at least as a boy wonder rather than perhaps a young Ensign) and that wouldn't have been of any great loss either. It would have also meant far fewer instances of family members paying a visit whenever they felt like it, and I wouldn't have missed that much either.

The role of Counselor needed to be better defined and a better actress would have been nice. I simply could never warm up to Marina Sirtis even when she had a respectable episode. I just found her ultimately whiny and annoying and not very credible.

It also would have been nice to have seen a little more variety to the Klingons and not so much of the comic opera type always spouting off about honour.

But the rest of it I'd be content to keep pretty much as is. Even the technobabble wasn't quite as bad as I recalled except for rare instances and mostly during the last two seasons.

Just watched "Loud as a Whisper" with the wife tonight (for very specific reasons). Troi was used extremely well and it was a good performance for Sirtis.

Don't see how size of the E-D was a prob, if anything it made it even more of a city in space with more stories.

Don't agree about the Klingons. The whole Klingon saga (with a few missteps in Redemption 2) was terrific. The best visual fiction use of Klingons ever.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Don't agree about the Klingons. The whole Klingon saga (with a few missteps in Redemption 2) was terrific. The best visual fiction use of Klingons ever.

Problem was that the Klingons ended up being just as one dimensional as they were in TOS.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ I'm not sure I'd describe a race that can include both Kor and Koloth as one-dimensional.

 

[BillJ]

^ I'm not sure I'd describe a race that can include both Kor and Koloth as one-dimensional.

Don't forget Kang.