Revisiting ST-TNG...

[RAMA]

Well I'm on the fence, you gave STNG a 'try" but probably not a "chance"...I'm thinking that too much of of certain preconceived notion colored some of your views. I'm willing to consider you just simply like the action/adventure format of TOS (along with shows of the era, Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea, Man from Uncle, etc) and aren't interested in the tone of STNG...and I think that accounts for your sense of slowness. I like action as much as the next guy, but I genuinely love that STNG is a rarity, and is much more thoughtful in it's presentation.

Interestingly, while on the surface it might seem you'd dislike ST09, I thought it brought back the exact sort of style that TOS was known for, and even the movies didn't really replicate..action/adventure, stress on adventure, so I believe you secretly like the movie but won't admit it (yes I know its supposedly "dumbed down" but its actually pretty clever, and I think media, industry and SF critics noticed this, which is why astoundingly it got a Hugo, Saturn, People's Choice, Academy Award, AND Writer's Guild award noms, a ST movie first)!! Definitely a reason why this is so.) Anyway, enough of that...

So am I to take it you never watched the last 3 seasons of DS9??

RAMA

 

[Warped9]

so I believe you secretly like the movie but won't admit it

RAMA

You would be dead wrong. I cannot for the life of me fathom what of TOS folks say they see in that film unless they're thinking of something along the lines of "I, Mudd." It's not just dumbed down, it's goddamned stupid (which should also give you some insight into what I think of that episode).

And I've seen occasional episodes of DS9's last three seasons.

Also to believe I didn't give TNG a chance is off the mark. I can appreciate thoughtful stories that have no action. I have quite a few films in my own dvd library that are like that. I just don't think TNG did them all that well for the most part. If I had thought they had then I'd have said so and graded those stories higher. But they didn't, not in my opinion.

They worked for you, but they didn't work for me.

 

[Ubik]

so I believe you secretly like the movie but won't admit it

RAMA

You would be dead wrong. I cannot for the life of me fathom what of TOS folks say they see in that film unless they're thinking of something along the lines of "I, Mudd." It's not just dumbed down, it's goddamned stupid (which should also give you some insight into what I think of that episode).

And I've seen occasional episodes of DS9's last three seasons.

Also to believe I didn't give TNG a chance is off the mark. I can appreciate thoughtful stories that have no action. I have quite a few films in my own dvd library that are like that. I just don't think TNG did them all that well for the most part. If I had thought they had then I'd have said so and graded those stories higher. But they didn't, not in my opinion.

They worked for you, but they didn't work for me.

Well, as I'm sure you've been told, the last 3 seasons of DS9 are heavily serialized (far more than the first couple of seasons were.) Even the episodes that aren't "mythology" episodes per say work primarily because we know the ticks, the backgrounds, and the inner conflicts of all the characters, and so those episodes wouldn't work so well on a casual viewer (it's much like Lost that way, except not as complex plot-wise.) The Visitor, for example, a masterpiece of science fiction television, may not work as well on people less familiar with the Jake and Ben Sisko relationship.

Also, I need to contradict what someone said a bit earlier here - DS9 in no way takes many seasons to get great. In its first season alone, it gave us two classics - Duet and In the Hands of the Prophets - two episodes that play directly to DS9's strengths: its Bajoran/Cardassian conflict, its shades of gray, and the fantastic writing and acting of Kira Nerys. And DS9's second season is one of its best.

So, basically, here's my suggestion: if you intend to give DS9 a try, watch the first season or two. If Duet and In the Hands of the Prophets do nothing for you, than DS9 just isn't for you. And if you aren't hooked by the end of the 2nd season, I don't believe you ever will be. Yes, the later seasons become more lively, to a certain extent, certainly more humourous, the characters become a bit more action-oriented, and the action itself increases, but the concentration on complex characterization and impossible ethical choices start right there, in the first couple of seasons. I'd say give those first 2 seasons a shot.

Oh, and for the record, DS9's characters have more in common with the TOS characters than the TNG ones; they're very individual, very quirky, very imperfect. They have a much wider range of emotions, and they far more often talk and act just like regular people than the TNG characters do. All in all, I really do believe it's a significantly more nuanced show than either TOS or TNG, and perhaps a better show because of that. If you like Babylon 5, DS9 has a very good chance of working on you. (Just leave your preconceived notions of what the Star Trek brand name is meant to represent at the door.)

 

[Warped9]

I watched the first two and a half seasons of DS9 and there were quite a few episodes I liked. But something in the third season was going off the rails for me. I drifted away when I discovered Babylon 5, and that is a very serialized series particularly in Seasons 3-5.

The last DS9 episode I quite liked from third season was "Second Skin." But not long after that I began to drift. I came back periodically to try again, but it could never hold me. As I mentioned before I quite like "Beyond The Stars." And, yes, I have seen "The Visitor." It was okay and somewhat touching, but I think they're really beating you over the head with it.

I think part of what drew me to Babylon 5 was that I'd had my fill of how contemporary Trek did its stuff on television. For me B5 illustrated everything that bugged me about contemporary Trek. I revisited B5 about six months ago and I loved it all over again. Even much of the 5th season which can get kinda flat and drag at times.

 

[Ubik]

I watched the first two and a half seasons of DS9 and there were quite a few episodes I liked. But something in the third season was going off the rails for me. I drifted away when I discovered Babylon 5, and that is a very serialized series particularly in Seasons 3-5.

The last DS9 episode I quite liked from third season was "Second Skin." But not long after that I began to drift. I came back periodically to try again, but it could never hold me. As I mentioned before I quite like "Beyond The Stars." And, yes, I have seen "The Visitor." It was okay and somewhat touching, but I think they're really beating you over the head with it.

I think part of what drew me to Babylon 5 was that I'd had my fill of how contemporary Trek did its stuff on television. For me B5 illustrated everything that bugged me about contemporary Trek. I revisited B5 about six months ago and I loved it all over again. Even much of the 5th season which can get kinda flat and drag at times.

It's interesting that you say that. Because DS9's 3rd season is easily, easily its worst season. Whenever I rewatch the show, it's the only season I have trouble with. The 3rd season is when the show was adrift, and they weren't sure what their identity was anymore. That's why they brought on Worf and the Klingons for the 4th. Ironically, the 4th season is a remarkable improvement over the 3rd, and it has almost nothing to do with Worf's presence! Then, in the 5th season, it presents us with, probably, one of the 2 or 3 best seasons in the Star Trek franchise.

Anyway, all of which to say, you weren't crazy for getting somewhat bored during the 3rd season. In fact, if you rewatch the show, you can safely skip most of that season, and not miss anything. Because, it would be a shame to miss out on the mastery that is the 5th season of DS9, because of a few rough patches that come before.

 

[RAMA]

so I believe you secretly like the movie but won't admit it

RAMA

You would be dead wrong. I cannot for the life of me fathom what of TOS folks say they see in that film unless they're thinking of something along the lines of "I, Mudd." It's not just dumbed down, it's goddamned stupid (which should also give you some insight into what I think of that episode).

Fair enough. Though I can't think of anything further from "I, Mudd" than ST09....like that would ever get a Writer's Guild nom.

In terms of DS9 I don't think a fair assessment of its last few yrs can be made without a consistent look at it. I would follow your viewing of DS9, but not ENT, cause even though you'd watch it I know you'd never give it a chance.


RAMA

 

[BillJ]

Well I'm on the fence, you gave STNG a 'try" but probably not a "chance"...

Warped9 ranked a third of it good, a third of it average and a third of it bad... yet he didn't give it a chance.

Don't ever change RAMA.

 

[RAMA]

When VOY premiered I tried the first few episodes then bolted. Occasionally I tried to sit through a random episode and could never tolerate more than ten minutes before my eyes would roll into the back of my head and my brain started to ache. As such I think it is among the very worst things done in Trek's name.

Let me guess, because it broke TOS' rule about no women captains?

No. Because it was a shitty show.

I can very easily name 35 episodes of Voyager that are roughly equivalent to some of the good/better TOS episodes. Voyager is by far the most inconsistent ST series, but those 35 episodes are almost half the run of TOS, so I don't feel its completely worthless. I also noticed that Voyager works well for people on this BB with repeat viewings..

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

Well I'm on the fence, you gave STNG a 'try" but probably not a "chance"...

Warped9 ranked a third of it good, a third of it average and a third of it bad... yet he didn't give it a chance.

Don't ever change RAMA.

Exactly....because he repeatedly voiced a preconcept(s) he had at the beginning of the viewings, that doesn't bode well for objectivity. I can be far more objective with TOS or say Voyager, my least fav ST series.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Well I'm on the fence, you gave STNG a 'try" but probably not a "chance"...

Warped9 ranked a third of it good, a third of it average and a third of it bad... yet he didn't give it a chance.

Don't ever change RAMA.

Isn't that what pretty much everyone thinks of TOS, too?

The rule of thirds?

 

[BillJ]

Well I'm on the fence, you gave STNG a 'try" but probably not a "chance"...

Warped9 ranked a third of it good, a third of it average and a third of it bad... yet he didn't give it a chance.

Don't ever change RAMA.

Exactly....because he repeatedly voiced a preconcept(s) he had at the beginning of the viewings, that doesn't bode well for objectivity. I can be far more objective with TOS or say Voyager, my least fav ST series.

Star Trek: The Original Series is by far my favorite series and I rank it a third good, a third average and a third bad. I didn't have any preconceptions going into it.

Sometimes a spade is just a spade.

 

[Warped9]

TNG (178 episodes)

My ratings:
Excellent (15 episodes) = 8.4%
Good (42 episodes) = 23.5%
Fair (56 episodes) = 31.4%
Poor (35 episodes) = 19.6%
Bad (30 episodes) = 16.8%

 

[Warped9]

...because he repeatedly voiced a preconcept(s) he had at the beginning of the viewings, that doesn't bode well for objectivity. I can be far more objective with TOS or say Voyager, my least fav ST series.

If I was so dead set in my preconceptions then I don't think I'd have even bothered revisiting the series.

 

[BillJ]

I can very easily name 35 episodes of Voyager that are roughly equivalent to some of the good/better TOS episodes. Voyager is by far the most inconsistent ST series, but those 35 episodes are almost half the run of TOS, so I don't feel its completely worthless. I also noticed that Voyager works well for people on this BB with repeat viewings..

Now do the percentages 35 good episodes out of 178 vs. 25-30 good episodes out of 80.

19.66% vs. 31.25% (25 episodes)

And let's not forget they had been making Modern Trek for better than a decade when Voyager premiered. They should have hit a grand slam with Voyager (great premise, good cast) yet it ended up being a tepid bunt down the third-base line.

 

[RAMA]

I can very easily name 35 episodes of Voyager that are roughly equivalent to some of the good/better TOS episodes. Voyager is by far the most inconsistent ST series, but those 35 episodes are almost half the run of TOS, so I don't feel its completely worthless. I also noticed that Voyager works well for people on this BB with repeat viewings..

Now do the percentages 35 good episodes out of 178 vs. 25-30 good episodes out of 80.

19.66% vs. 31.25% (25 episodes)

And let's not forget they had been making Modern Trek for better than a decade when Voyager premiered. They should have hit a grand slam with Voyager (great premise, good cast) yet it ended up being a tepid bunt down the third-base line.

Well there are more than 35 good episodes, but only about 35 comparable to TOS's best. I'd say Voyager had maybe 75 good episodes, still not a great percentage.

RAMA

 

[Swampfeet83]

He sat though episodes like "Code of Honor", "Justice", "Angel One", "Cost of Living", "Imaginary Friend" and "Up The Long Ladder. That's not just giving it a chance, that's out and out endurance training.

 

[BillJ]

I can very easily name 35 episodes of Voyager that are roughly equivalent to some of the good/better TOS episodes. Voyager is by far the most inconsistent ST series, but those 35 episodes are almost half the run of TOS, so I don't feel its completely worthless. I also noticed that Voyager works well for people on this BB with repeat viewings..

Now do the percentages 35 good episodes out of 178 vs. 25-30 good episodes out of 80.

19.66% vs. 31.25% (25 episodes)

And let's not forget they had been making Modern Trek for better than a decade when Voyager premiered. They should have hit a grand slam with Voyager (great premise, good cast) yet it ended up being a tepid bunt down the third-base line.

Well there are more than 35 good episodes, but only about 35 comparable to TOS's best. I'd say Voyager had maybe 75 good episodes, still not a great percentage.

RAMA

I think 35 good episodes is just about right. The rest of it was just warmed over bullshit discarded from the other series.

 

[Warped9]

DS9 episodes I remember liking:

"Emissary"
"A Man Alone"
"Captive Pursuit"
"Battle Lines"
"Progress"
"Duet"
"In The Hands Of The Prophets"

"The Homecoming"
"The Circle"
"The Siege"
"Necessary Evil"
"Sanctuary"
"Whispers"
"Paradise"
"The Wire"
"Crossover"
"Tribunal"
"The Jem'Hadar"

"The Search"
"The House Of Quark"
"Second Skin"
"Defiant"
"Fascination"
"Past Tense"

"Accession"

"Far Beyond The Stars"


I have seen a number of other episodes over Seasons 4-7, but I don't recall any of them really doing much for em.

 

[Harvey]

I have a hard time believing you could like that batch of episodes from the first three seasons and not be captivated by what comes in the last four years. It really is worth giving the series another try, I think -- especially if you have been able to revise your opinion of TNG so dramatically.

 

[BillJ]

I have a hard time believing you could like that batch of episodes from the first three seasons and not be captivated by what comes in the last four years. It really is worth giving the series another try, I think -- especially if you have been able to revise your opinion of TNG so dramatically.

I don't know. I never dug War Trek either.