Revisiting ST-TNG...

[Gepard]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

Yeah, but you haven't really given TNG a chance.

Excuse me, but this is a ridiculous remark.

Humor. It is a difficult concept.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Acting in TOS was far more naturalistic than the TNG formula of 'I complete dialogue *pause* you complete dialogue *pause* I complete dialogue'. Perhaps it's a difference in generations... but I find the acting of the sixties to be vastly superior to what came later.

Pah, rubbish. Whilst TNG's cast wasn't comprised entirely of 5-star geniuses, neither was TOS's. Those faults lie more in the directors and producers and they way they ran things in TNG and beyond. While it's not the same show, Robert Duncan McNeill's comments about Voyager's set not being a particularly spontaneous environment seem to apply to TNG as well.

Your mileage may vary, objects in mirror closer than they appear, etc etc and so forth.

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, but you haven't really given TNG a chance.

Excuse me, but this is a ridiculous remark.

Humor. It is a difficult concept.

 

[Warped9]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

When I'm done with TOS and TAS I'm going to revisit the films. Initially I watched the first two and a half seasons of DS9 before I drifted away, and so I'm debating whether I have any real interest to revisit the series. Presently the only memorable and worthy episode I remember from the later seasons is "Beyond The Stars."

I have absolutely zero interest in watching VOY in any capacity. In regard to ENT it isn't wholly impossible that I might one day try getting through it, but there are other non Trek related works I have more interest in first.

 

[CaptainStoner]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

Yeah, but you haven't really given TNG a chance.

Excuse me, but this is a ridiculous remark. I watched it initially when it was originally broadcast. I've watched numerous episodes when rerun over the years. And now I've just watched the entire series, every damned episode, pretty much back-to-back over the past three months.

And because I don't accept every single frame of it and bow down to kiss Rick Berman's ass I didn't give the show a chance???

If that's the case then I've just wasted a good portion of the last three months.

sorry man, the "shifty" emote was supposed to denote I was joking. Especially considering you purchased the DVD's, and even flew the E-D on your Av for a while.
I don't like every episode either, nor am I a fan of Rick Berman's posterior.
You're more than fair to TNG and I appreciate your threads.

 

[Ubik]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

When I'm done with TOS and TAS I'm going to revisit the films. Initially I watched the first two and a half seasons of DS9 before I drifted away, and so I'm debating whether I have any real interest to revisit the series. Presently the only memorable and worthy episode I remember from the later seasons is "Beyond The Stars."

I have absolutely zero interest in watching VOY in any capacity. In regard to ENT it isn't wholly impossible that I might one day try getting through it, but there are other non Trek related works I have more interest in first.

Well, here's my two-cents worth: for what it's worth, I believe you did give TNG a very good chance, and as far as I can tell, you're only largely wrong about season 6, which has a second half far better than you give it credit for. Otherwise, you aren't, in your critical analysis of the show, that far off.

And I will say this: Deep Space Nine is a brilliant show if you aren't looking for a space adventure. It has a rather poor first season, and that is primarily because it was trying to imitate TNG with their wacky sci-fi plot of the week, and frankly, the DS9 characters just weren't right for that sort of thing, and neither were the DS9 writers.

However, if you open your mind to the possibility that the Star Trek universe and premise can contain a television series that is a character drama based on an exploration of war, religion, politics, and the human condition (an exploration of the human condition far deeper, psychologically, than anything TOS or TNG ever did), then you will fall in love with Deep Space Nine. No, it isn't often mind-expanding science fiction or rollicking adventure. What it is is a complex, layered, and insightful exploration of human beings. It's a character drama, an excellent one. And if you can get yourself into that mindset, with those expectations, then someone with your obviously perceptive critical abilities will, I suspect, begin to really appreciate it.

I may be wrong. But I think you may surprise yourself.

Anyway, as for Voyager, Enterprise, and Star Trek Generations, Insurrection, or Nemesis, I will echo the majority sentiment, and suggest that you don't bother.

 

[Warped9]

Yeah, but you haven't really given TNG a chance.

Excuse me, but this is a ridiculous remark. I watched it initially when it was originally broadcast. I've watched numerous episodes when rerun over the years. And now I've just watched the entire series, every damned episode, pretty much back-to-back over the past three months.

And because I don't accept every single frame of it and bow down to kiss Rick Berman's ass I didn't give the show a chance???

If that's the case then I've just wasted a good portion of the last three months.

sorry man, the "shifty" emote was supposed to denote I was joking. Especially considering you purchased the DVD's, and even flew the E-D on your Av for a while.
I don't like every episode either, nor am I a fan of Rick Berman's posterior.
You're more than fair to TNG and I appreciate your threads.

No worries.

Anyway, as for Voyager, Enterprise, and Star Trek Generations, Insurrection, or Nemesis, I will echo the majority sentiment, and suggest that you don't bother.

When VOY premiered I tried the first few episodes then bolted. Occasionally I tried to sit through a random episode and could never tolerate more than ten minutes before my eyes would roll into the back of my head and my brain started to ache. As such I think it is among the very worst things done in Trek's name.

ENT is something I felt extremely disappointed in because of its missed potential, what it could have been. I felt they got so much wrong from the get-go and it never really got better except for the occasional moment. That said I must admit to a measure of curiosity about it.

I haven't seen the films in quite awhile so it would be fun to revisit them. But I've no real interest to go beyond First Contact. INS was awful and what I've seen of NEM looks even worse so I've no interest to revisit those.

 

[startrekwatcher]

And I will say this: Deep Space Nine is a brilliant show if you aren't looking for a space adventure.

DS9 was a solid series--but brilliant--uh not really.

It has a rather poor first season, and that is primarily because it was trying to imitate TNG with their wacky sci-fi plot of the week, and frankly, the DS9 characters just weren't right for that sort of thing, and neither were the DS9 writers.

And I'd also throw in the bad idea of bringing on so many TNG characters like Q, Vash, Lursa B'etor that year.

DS9 was a series in search of an identity for many years--first with the Bajoran stuff and when they didn't catch on in Season two they tried introducing a big bad in the Dominion then when that didn't work initially they went back to Klingons.

In my opinion, the show didn't find itself until Season 5 when it launched into the Dominion War and embraced serialization with the Occupation and Final Chapters arcs--S5 and 7 are my favorite of the show. With that the show was able to start telling stories unique to itself--exploring and expanding on TOS/TNG races and given viewers a unique perspective of the impact of the Dominion War. They also began giving more screentime to far more interesting characters--the Founder, Dukat, Weyoun, Garak, Winn--in these latter years and reducing the focus on less interesting ones like Jadzia or Bashir.

I also wasn't crazy about a lot of the overdosing on romance--far more prevalent here than any other show. The Ferengi episodes were worse than most any bad TNG episode.

Anyway, as for Voyager, Enterprise, and Star Trek Generations, Insurrection, or Nemesis, I will echo the majority sentiment, and suggest that you don't bother.

VOY isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Granted it is uneven, the characters are dull and they failed to make use of the unique DElta Quadrant however it had some good stories to tell and after watching a lot of the crap that has come out in the last decade you come to appreciate it more.

ENT S1/2 were bland and inoffensive content to recycle earlier Trek stories through the eyes of a new crew. Finally in S3 they made the show interesting again. The Xindi arc is absolutely wonderful.

 

[Anwar]

When VOY premiered I tried the first few episodes then bolted. Occasionally I tried to sit through a random episode and could never tolerate more than ten minutes before my eyes would roll into the back of my head and my brain started to ache. As such I think it is among the very worst things done in Trek's name.

Let me guess, because it broke TOS' rule about no women captains?

 

[Warped9]

When VOY premiered I tried the first few episodes then bolted. Occasionally I tried to sit through a random episode and could never tolerate more than ten minutes before my eyes would roll into the back of my head and my brain started to ache. As such I think it is among the very worst things done in Trek's name.

Let me guess, because it broke TOS' rule about no women captains?

No, because it was as dumb as could be. Poorly conceived, poorly written, etc, etc, etc...

And TOS had no such rule. Janice Lester's ravings notwithstanding.

 

[BillJ]

When VOY premiered I tried the first few episodes then bolted. Occasionally I tried to sit through a random episode and could never tolerate more than ten minutes before my eyes would roll into the back of my head and my brain started to ache. As such I think it is among the very worst things done in Trek's name.

Let me guess, because it broke TOS' rule about no women captains?

No. Because it was a shitty show.

 

[Anwar]

Look I know with Voyager that folks were expecting the entire crew, with no exceptions, to have completely fallen to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another, at least in their spare time, while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

But that just wasn't going to happen.

 

[GNDN]

Look I know with Voyager that folks were expecting the entire crew, with no exceptions, to have completely fallen to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another, at least in their spare time, while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

But that just wasn't going to happen.

Uh, as shitty as that premise sounds... it would at least have had the potential to be interesting. Voyager is pretty miserable story-telling much of the time, regardless of the premise. Bland characterization with the exception of the Doctor, who was one of the more passionate and intriguing individuals on the show.

 

[GNDN]

If nothing else I'd like to think that it should put to rest the notion that I'm a hater who can't tolerate anything beyond the original series. Particularly during the first half of the series I had quite a bit of fun revisiting these episodes.

When I'm done with TOS and TAS I'm going to revisit the films. Initially I watched the first two and a half seasons of DS9 before I drifted away, and so I'm debating whether I have any real interest to revisit the series. Presently the only memorable and worthy episode I remember from the later seasons is "Beyond The Stars."

I have absolutely zero interest in watching VOY in any capacity. In regard to ENT it isn't wholly impossible that I might one day try getting through it, but there are other non Trek related works I have more interest in first.

From everything I've read, I really do feel you have given TNG a very fair shake, and I'm glad you rediscovered some of the gems of the series and got some level of enjoyment. Kudos to sticking through all seven seasons even when you knew things would disappoint you as you went along. It was a great ride.

The movies should be an easy watch as there aren't that many of them. But time has not been kind to a number of them, especially the TNG outings.

I would love to hear your perspective on DS9. The first season is admittedly rocky, and the growing pains were a direct result of not wanting to let go of the comfortable story-telling style of TNG (the same problem that plagued much of VOY and ENT).

Bringing in TNG guest stars seems only logical in retrospect as they were trying to woo viewers over, and the space station concept actually welcomed visitors of this type better than a ship based show ever did (oh, here's Lwaxana Troi dropping by the Ent again because she needs transport to a conference, etc.)

But of course DS9 really started to shine once it shed itself of it's TNG roots and really dug into the nitty gritty of the cultures and politics of the region of space where it was located. So no, it's not a show of exploration per se, but there are very worthy world-building and human stories told within its very alien context.

Jammer's reviews of DS9 can be as fun as the show itself, and I would be very interested in knowing your perspective, even if the concept in general is not your cup of tea.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Look I know with Voyager that folks were expecting the entire crew, with no exceptions, to have completely fallen to pieces within the first two episodes and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another, at least in their spare time, while the rest of it would comprise of them all becoming vicious bloodthirsty space pirates who revel in being free of the Federation and go around ravaging, destroying and stealing everything from every sentient race encountered (especially the nice ones who welcome them) because that's "more true to life" and "better drama" than people who decide to overcome their differences and accept the aid others give them.

But that just wasn't going to happen.

I realize you're Voyager's knight in shining armor, but it really isn't necessary. Some people just don't like the show. Coming in and blowing things out of proportion with strawman marionettes of everyone who dared to complain about Voy is not going to change their minds.

(As an aside, I think TNG and DS9 deserve a lot of the blame for many of the traits percieved as downfalls on Voy. The most significant for me, is the constantly stolid and restrained style of behaviour that the characters of all three spinoffs suffered from. Voy just gave people more of what they wanted, but two spinoffs after TNG, the new car smell of TNG-era Trek was starting to wear off.)

 

[antiquityscion]

 

[tomalak301]

So are you saying Wil Wheaton looks like Roxann Dawson? Um, so?

And I like Voyager, but admit that there were aspects of the show that could have been better.

 

[Harvey]

Roxann Dawson? Isn't that Rachel Maddow?

 

[tomalak301]

Roxann Dawson? Isn't that Rachel Maddow?

Yes it is, which makes me even more confused. We were talking Voyager and I guess I had Roxann Dawson on the mind.

 

[GNDN]

Roxann Dawson? Isn't that Rachel Maddow?

Cool, bring on TNG Remastered featuring Leslie Crusher! Her first kiss with Salia and her relationship with Lefler could be 'enhanced'.