Revisiting ST-TNG...

[Warped9]

"Liaisons" *

The Enterprise crew play hosts to a new race and Picard is stranded after a crash landing.

I didn't care for this so many years ago and I still don't. The Picard sequences are insufferably boring. And the rest of it isn't much better. The only mildly entertaining parts are watching Worf struggle with being diplomatic with an obvious jackass. Add to this that the whole story suffers if you already know the outcome. Other episodes can overcome you knowing the outcome because you can still enjoy how the story is told---you can enjoy the mechanics of it. That doesn't apply here.

The other big problem is conceptual. Never mind that it is yet again fore-head-of-week, but if you have aliens in humanoid form and nearly indistinguishable from humans then it's hard to accept that there is absolutely no common ground. It's hard to accept that they cannot conceive of sensory experience and certain emotional experiences---those things are inherently part of the human form built up over a million years of evolution. This isn't the first time TNG does this, but it's even more stupid here.

TOS dabbled with the idea of aliens not understanding sensation and other human concepts, but TOS had the good sense to make those aliens actually alien but adopting human form. I'm referring to Sylvia and Korob in "Catspaw," the Kelvans in "By Any Other Name" and Yarnek in "The Savage Curtain."

 

[Noname Given]

She's a full commander and has taken the command training exam (like Troi will later do in season seven).

I always had an issue with it too. Why? You've going to have a hard time convincing me there isn't another senior officer with MORE command experience then a Ship's CMO.

Sorry, but in a COMBAT situation with an enemy that has been shown tio take out Fleets, the first person (regardless of rank, UNLESS there is no other person with the Rank of Commander on the ship); is teh Chief medical officer. Her job is maintaining the health and well being of the crew; not commanding a Starship in a possible combat situatuation.

(And as a TOS fan, I would have had the exact same issue if - in a similar situation, Kirk said, "Bones, take the Con!")

 

[Warped9]

^^ Precisely. And note in TOS we've seen Sulu in command even in place of Scotty.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Yeah Liaisons was pretty underwhelming and boring--you won't get an argument from me.

 

[BillJ]

She's a full commander and has taken the command training exam (like Troi will later do in season seven).

I always had an issue with it too. Why? You've going to have a hard time convincing me there isn't another senior officer with MORE command experience then a Ship's CMO.

Sorry, but in a COMBAT situation with an enemy that has been shown tio take out Fleets, the first person (regardless of rank, UNLESS there is no other person with the Rank of Commander on the ship); is teh Chief medical officer. Her job is maintaining the health and well being of the crew; not commanding a Starship in a possible combat situatuation.

(And as a TOS fan, I would have had the exact same issue if - in a similar situation, Kirk said, "Bones, take the Con!")

 

[RAMA]

"Liaisons" *

The Enterprise crew play hosts to a new race and Picard is stranded after a crash landing.

I didn't care for this so many years ago and I still don't. The Picard sequences are insufferably boring. And the rest of it isn't much better. The only mildly entertaining parts are watching Worf struggle with being diplomatic with an obvious jackass. Add to this that the whole story suffers if you already know the outcome. Other episodes can overcome you knowing the outcome because you can still enjoy how the story is told---you can enjoy the mechanics of it. That doesn't apply here.

The other big problem is conceptual. Never mind that it is yet again fore-head-of-week, but if you have aliens in humanoid form and nearly indistinguishable from humans then it's hard to accept that there is absolutely no common ground. It's hard to accept that they cannot conceive of sensory experience and certain emotional experiences---those things are inherently part of the human form built up over a million years of evolution. This isn't the first time TNG does this, but it's even more stupid here.

TOS dabbled with the idea of aliens not understanding sensation and other human concepts, but TOS had the good sense to make those aliens actually alien but adopting human form. I'm referring to Sylvia and Korob in "Catspaw," the Kelvans in "By Any Other Name" and Yarnek in "The Savage Curtain."

Terrible episode...don't understand how this one made it to filming at all.

RAMA

 

[RAMA]

"Descent" Part II **

Data is found allied with Lore with and a faction of Borg.

Part I ended on a stink and Part II isn't any better. Granted Crusher's performance in command was somewhat interesting, but it doesn't wash away the stupidity of the idea and it still remains out of character and wholly unbelievable. Under Lore's influence Data's experimentation on Laforge is rather disturbing. All told though I really didn't care for this.

Season 7 is off to a poor start.

Descent I was a darn good story, but I agree here, Descent II was a huge let down. I recall the writer's saying they had no idea how to end the story...ugh.

RAMA

 

[Distorted Humor]

Descent I was a darn good story, but I agree here, Descent II was a huge let down. I recall the writer's saying they had no idea how to end the story...ugh.

RAMA

Descent was a good idea that failed in panning out its promise, and was one of the weakest two part storylines.

 

[Anwar]

Too bad, the Renegade Borg were some of the better fighters in Trek. Makes one wonder why the normal Borg never tried the "fast attackers with built-in weapons" approach.

And with TOS, Medical Officers didn't have any Command training at all IIRC. Crusher at least did take Command training and via technicality did have the right to command the ship.

And seeing how she handled herself in a believable manner that even tied into her prior episode with the Ferengi scientist, it worked out pretty well.

 

[Harvey]

^^ Precisely. And note in TOS we've seen Sulu in command even in place of Scotty.

Sure...in episodes where James Doohan was absent. There wasn't any more logic to Sulu assuming command over Scotty than that. Scotty took command of the Enterprise plenty of times himself, including in combat situations. Generally, it appeared that he was third in line for command, after Kirk and Spock, of course.

A command test is not the same thing as someone who has been trained over years to command. Crusher has spent years training to be a physician. Riker and Picard and Kirk and Sisko and others have been trained over years to command. Sulu is a trained and experienced combat officer (as stated in TOS' "Arena").

Passing the bridge officer exam certifies an officer to take command. Crusher passed the test; she's certified to command. McCoy was never shown to have any interest in command, so it's no surprise that he never assumed the position. Using protocol established in Star Trek: The Next Generation, we can assume he never took the bridge officer exam.

Kirk was trained as a navigator. Picard was trained in the sciences. Crusher being trained as a physician is no different -- you aren't born into command in Starfleet. Rather, it's a position you rise into over time. If it hasn't already been established (my memory serves me poorly) it will be established later that Crusher commands the night watch of the Enterprise-D from time to time. If Picard and the rest of the senior staff are going to head off on a planetary mission, Crusher is certainly next in line to command the ship. Now, is it a stupid decision on Picard's part to send so many people to the surface in search of Data? Probably, but his judgment is obviously being clouded by his personal feelings.

 

[SchwEnt]

Amongst the other problems noted above with "Descent", another one for me is the disjointed plots.

It's a story about the Borg and Hugh and the consequences of introducing individuality to the collective.

It's a story about Data finally achieving emotional awareness.

It's a story about the return of Lore.

It's a story about Crusher and her trials of command experience.

I can see any of these as the idea for an eps. To combine them all together doesn't seem like a fitting mix to me and the end result consequently is a mess.


Oh yes... and what's the deal with Lore here?
His rampage about "destroying the Federation" and "wiping out all organic life" and so on. Oh what... because he's EVIL?

I can see harboring resentment against Data or having personal grudges against Soong or Picard. But the whole "wipe out the Federation" stuff? Why?
What's his beef with an interstellar organization?
Did he simply need some huge giant goal to rally all the Borg?

Seemed to me the standard super-villain evil plot, like Shinzon and others. Destroy Earth and/or the Federation and/or humanity just because it's the evil thing to do. No really apparent reason why total annihilation is the villain's motivation aside from "Muwahaha!!!"

 

[{ Emilia }]

Seemed to me the standard super-villain evil plot, like Shinzon and others. Destroy Earth and/or the Federation and/or humanity just because it's the evil thing to do. No really apparent reason why total annihilation is the villain's motivation aside from "Muwahaha!!!"

Sorry to interrupt the discussion but: This made me laugh out loud. Wonderful!

 

[Harvey]

Amongst the other problems noted above with "Descent", another one for me is the disjointed plots.

It's a story about the Borg and Hugh and the consequences of introducing individuality to the collective.

It's a story about Data finally achieving emotional awareness.

It's a story about the return of Lore.

It's a story about Crusher and her trials of command experience.

Like I said before, I don't think the problem is that the plots are disjointed so much as I think there are too many of them. There's just no reason for Lore to be there other than to add something to the season cliffhanger. Add to that how silly his antics are (then again, he's always been a bit of the stupid "evil twin" trope) and you only have further reason to want him removed from the episode.

I think "Descent" works pretty well as an episode, as a result, because Lore only appears to muck things up at the very end of it.

 

[Warped9]

Crusher may be entitled to command under normal circumstances, but not in a combat situation. The issue isn't so much her performance (which I still think was bullshit given her background), but rather Picard's decision in the first place. That was inexcusable. If Crusher had lost the ship it would have been directly Picard's fault.

And also note that early on Picard left Laforge in command in place of a senior ranked Chief Engineer ("Arsenal Of Freedom").

 

[RAMA]

Crusher may be entitled to command under normal circumstances, but not in a combat situation. The issue isn't so much her performance (which I still think was bullshit given her background), but rather Picard's decision in the first place. That was inexcusable. If Crusher had lost the ship it would have been directly Picard's fault.

And also note that early on Picard left Laforge in command in place of a senior ranked Chief Engineer ("Arsenal Of Freedom").

I don't have a problem with it, mainly because the Starfleet of the 24th century is less rigidly militaristic and ritualized than previous generations...but this isn't really unusual in other centuries either. Kirk's Enterprise was multi-purpose...Archer's Enterprise didn't even carry crew members that were considered "military" until the MACOs came aboard.

RAMA

 

[GNDN]

(And as a TOS fan, I would have had the exact same issue if - in a similar situation, Kirk said, "Bones, take the Con!")

Tell me I'm not the only one who now wants to see a re-imagined Spock's Brain with Kirk and automaton Spock on the surface and Bones in the center seat brain-storming with Chekov and Uhura?

 

[Noname Given]

Crusher may be entitled to command under normal circumstances, but not in a combat situation. The issue isn't so much her performance (which I still think was bullshit given her background), but rather Picard's decision in the first place. That was inexcusable. If Crusher had lost the ship it would have been directly Picard's fault.

And also note that early on Picard left Laforge in command in place of a senior ranked Chief Engineer ("Arsenal Of Freedom").

I don't have a problem with it, mainly because the Starfleet of the 24th century is less rigidly militaristic and ritualized than previous generations...but this isn't really unusual in other centuries either. Kirk's Enterprise was multi-purpose...Archer's Enterprise didn't even carry crew members that were considered "military" until the MACOs came aboard.

RAMA

You know, while Gene Roddenberry like to claim, "StarFleet is a non-military organization...." a lot; the actual SCRIPTS from the early days of TOS, all the way through the TNG era; and then with ENT DON'T back him up.

And if that was such a tennant of StarFleet in general, GR should have shot down all these scripts to the contrary during his tenures on TOS and TNG.

GR kiled to spout A LOT of stuff regarding 'Star Trek'; but to be honest, a lot of what he stated just doesn't jive with what HE HIMSELF decided to present in the shows themselves.

StarFleet always came across as the military arm of te UFP; and had a military rank structure and A LOT of hard core military elements from TOS through TNG, et. al.

If it walks like a Duck, quacks like a Duck, etc; it's a Duck...regardless of what the owner might say one way or the other when cornered; or wanting to push a particular agenda.

 

[BillJ]

Crusher may be entitled to command under normal circumstances, but not in a combat situation. The issue isn't so much her performance (which I still think was bullshit given her background), but rather Picard's decision in the first place. That was inexcusable. If Crusher had lost the ship it would have been directly Picard's fault.

And also note that early on Picard left Laforge in command in place of a senior ranked Chief Engineer ("Arsenal Of Freedom").

I don't have a problem with it, mainly because the Starfleet of the 24th century is less rigidly militaristic and ritualized than previous generations...but this isn't really unusual in other centuries either. Kirk's Enterprise was multi-purpose...Archer's Enterprise didn't even carry crew members that were considered "military" until the MACOs came aboard.

RAMA

Was Picard or Riker that more valuable on the ground than being in command of the Enterprise? That is what the writers' are asking you to swallow.

It still baffles me to this day that they couldn't find compelling storylines for Crusher as Chief Medical Officer.

 

[Warped9]

It still baffles me to this day that they couldn't find compelling storylines for Crusher as Chief Medical Officer.

It's why they had her inviting scientists aboard and expressing interest in a science completely divorced from her field. And it's why later she's going to get involved with a ghost.

 

[BillJ]

It still baffles me to this day that they couldn't find compelling storylines for Crusher as Chief Medical Officer.

It's why they had her inviting scientists aboard and expressing interest in a science completely divorced from her field. And it's why later she's going to get involved with a ghost.

Part of the problem with the character is that there are just too many layers between her and Picard. So she never develops as a close confidant.