Spoilers References in "Discovery"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Enterprise' started by Captain59, Oct 3, 2017.

  1. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Commodore Premium Member

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    Garth become a fleet captain though, but by this stage must surely be on Elba II and thus unlikely to be decorated (I got the impression that while Axanar was the crown jewel, he was well known even without it, thus if Axanar is still to come he may well be on the list)

    Pike is currently captain, so there's no 'only captains that got promoted or died trying' filter.

    As for an alphabetical list - it goes as far as "P", that's over half way through.

    I'm disapointed that "Pike" was listed, rather than "Fernandez", or "Chtr'Ta Fhy'Lok", Pike has several more years to make his name before being promoted and replaced.

    Archer without a doubt should be on the list. Maybe the Computer fudged the results for Saru to have Georgeu on there too.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2017
  2. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    Maybe he's been blacklisted temporarily?

    Or Starfleet isn't letting a lot of current officers be listed.
     
  3. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yup, what counts here is that these people must have collected their laurels prior to 2256. Although it's odd that Archer would qualify, being from so far in the past: only "known" names appearing on the list from A to P is fine for a limited timespan, but probably not fine for a full hundred years.

    Or then kicked off the important ship so that some real skipper can take his place for the duration of the war.

    We know Pike commanded the Enterprise in 2254, and again around 2265 when he handed her over to Kirk. We aren't told he would have held the ship for the whole 11 years (we only know that he worked with Spock for all those consecutive years).

    As for his promotions, Kirk first saw Pike when the latter was promoted to Fleet Captain. We have no idea when this happened, other than Kirk supposedly enrolling in 2251 - but he could have been there at the age of 6½ with his dad for all we know.

    We don't know if Fleet Captain is in any way different from plain Captain. Perhaps it just tells apart the Starfleet rank from the civilian position, both of which are confusingly called Captain?

    Garth for one was never ever called a Fleet Captain - that's a misconception from "Whom Gods Destroy" dialogue where he's said to be a Captain in the starship fleet.

    FWIW, in "The Cage" Pike is not given any specific rank. But he wears the sleeve markings appropriate for Lieutenant in two ways: first, because that's how Lieutenant is marked in TOS, and second, because that's the exact same braid his Number One officer, explicitly of Lieutenant rank, wears.

    I very much doubt her decorations came from there. She was supposed to be a veteran skipper of great merit back when Sarek gave her an adoptive daughter already; her stack of medals may have had decades of dust on them in 2256.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  4. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    By a recent lawsuit:lol:
     
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  5. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    So all pretty much ready or already had gone up another rank.

    Not sure how I feel about a kind of War Doctor reveal of there being another Enterprise captain we never heard of between Pike and Kirk.

    I was simply trying to bring coffee to the natives!
     
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  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It would be very odd for there not to be one, because Kirk's five consecutive years are supposed to make him exceptionally qualified in ST:TMP. Pike probably should go do something else for a while to keep things consistent there.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

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    Hmm, although Kirk does refer to Christopher as his predecessor.
     
  8. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    They're re-using a lot of old unused concepts in this show. Maybe we'll get that USS Enterprise from the unmade Star Trek: The Academy Years feature.
     
  9. Laura Cynthia Chambers

    Laura Cynthia Chambers Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Perhaps his reputation is a bit too fearsome for prey to aspire to?
     
  10. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Commodore Premium Member

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    Kirks experinece was a mission in deep space exploring the unknown. Pike may have spent 10 years pottering around core federation worlds.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  11. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk Rocky Racoon Premium Member

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    I think Kirk was the only one who thought that. ;)
     
  12. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    ...He'd be that even if he was sent to a desk job immediately after "The Cage", commanded the Indistinct and the Grey for three years each, and then returned to command the Enterprise for nine months before handing her over to Kirk.

    Certainly there's now "actual" precedent to one and the same skipper being in charge of a vessel for at least seven years straight (rather than mere "postcedent" from the 24th century).

    Still, Georgiou might have been "the Kirk of her day", leaving Jim T. an exceptional officer as of the 2270s.

    But it's fundamentally difficult to define Kirk's five TOS years in terms of anything much - in his aired adventures, he did go to the unknown, but he also went to the known a lot, so perhaps 20% of his exploits at best would qualify as being different from "puttering around core Federation worlds".

    There's always that... If Kirk managed to wrestle the command of Earth's only worthwhile defense vessel to himself despite being

    a) expected by Starfleet to do the Chief of SF Ops job,
    b) on a world most of the known starship captains come from, &
    c) of inferior type competence compared to a pre-chosen skipper,

    it's not as if his factual qualifications would matter much. Really, "I got the job" is the best possible reference for having the job!

    ...In terms of thread relevance, how was Archer decorated? And do we know if he commanded other starships besides NX-01? That is, do we know that he did not?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  13. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Commodore Premium Member

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    We know he became president, he saved the earth in s3, and was crucial in forming the coalition of planets. I suspect federation starfleet formed from earth starfleet, so accolades would have been carried over, despite nx01 never being a federation ship.
     
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    If accolades do carry over, the we have to worry about all those accomplished Vulcans and Andorians not being on Saru's list...

    What I meant is, do we actually hear of specific decorations Archer got for his job of starship command? I agree he must have gotten some for S3 if not for the other stuff, and also a couple of freebies for being the first (that is, the first to really deep space where stuff happens).

    And the answer is, yes, we do: the "In a Mirror, Darkly" document lists four-plus decorations - none of which is identifiably UFP Starfleet.

    What do you think, does this rap sheet from "In a Mirror, Darkly" preclude the command of UFP Starfleet starships? It only mentions command of NX-01, from 2150 through 2160, but the next entry in his CV is for 2169...

    Also, Is there any reason, from dialogue or otherwise, to believe Archer commanded no UESF starships before NX-01?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  15. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    Pretty sure Archer just showed up one day and they said "Well, since your Dad built the engine, you can be captain!"

    It's sad that Michael Burnham got a more detailed and fleshed-out backstory in the first two episodes of DSC than Archer got in four years.
     
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  16. Paul Weaver

    Paul Weaver Commodore Premium Member

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    Where he becomes andorian ambassador - having been starfleet chief of staff. That doesn't leave long for commanding a starship between 2161 and 2169. At that point he'd have had at least 10 years of captaining under his belt, how long would TPTB have let him stay on the bridge? The most experienced captain they have, instrumental in the coalition of planets and the federation, well respected by allies.
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed - but then there's the Kirk Factor to figure in, the possible career-suicidal desire for Archer to stay in command and the demonstrated viability of such a maneuver. I mean, even Glenn got to fly a second time, and that was in the real world.

    It's a bit odd that Archer never boasted on a prior command. I mean, he must have had some, even if those weren't vessels but "mere" facilities or other units. His job is one of commanding, which calls for command experience, and I doubt he got that from the corporate world. A Chief Engineer or Chief Medical Officer in those olden days might have been a civilian expert who was given the position after a two-week primer on how to pretend to be Starfleet; Archer has no such expertise (or if he has, he's not allowed to make use of it), and is merely expected to command.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  18. Farscape One

    Farscape One Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Definitely room for either, as no one knows the fate of Captain Edison in this timeline.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2017
  19. Captain59

    Captain59 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    My guess is the ship is named for Balthazaar Edison.
     
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  20. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Admiral Admiral

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    "Despite Yourself" directly references the events of...
    "In a Mirror, Darkly". The USS Defiant is even seen on a monitor (albeit in slightly reimagined form)