Ranks of characters

[Shamrock Holmes]

This is just a photoshopped image as an example, right? In the actual episode, Pressman wore two boxed pips throughout.

That's true, Quinn's uniform didn't though. TNG s1 & s2 showed us 'no pip', 'one pip' and 'two pip', TNG s3 onwards showed 'two pip', 'three pip'* and 'four pip'. No five pip has been seen on that system or any system in the Prime Timeline.

I think it would be unlikely that any flag rank would have no insignia at all. I would tend to believe that system used 1 to 5 boxed pips, rather than 0 to 4. YMMV.

The only potential evidence for a 'five star' insignia of any sort being used in Star Trek (based on onscreeen evidence) at all is in the Abramsverse, Alexander Marcus, the Head of Starfleet (equivalent of at least one of the Joint Chiefs if not the Chairman, possibly with elements of SecNav or SecDef) wore 'five lozenges' on his dress uniform, compared to Pike's four (who wore three stripes on his working uniform), and given that VADMs hold many of the roles that ADMs/GEN do in the US Forces then it seems unlikely that they would need a higher rank than that. A possible scheme (based on TOS or naval ranks) would be:

Broad stripe (one star in UESF) = Commodore (referenced in text during Conspiracy so the implication that this in an Admiral rank is likely erroneous).
Broad stripe + medium stripe (two-star in UESF) = Rear Admiral.
Broad stripe + 2 medium stripes (three-star in UESF) = Vice Admiral.
Broad stripe + 3 medium stripes (four-star in UESF) = Fleet Vice Admiral (based on the French rank of Vice-amiral d'escadre [Squadron Vice-Admiral]).
Broad stripe + 4 medium stripes (five-star in UESF) = Fleet Admiral.

 

[Little_kingsfan]

So I just finished skimming this entire thread, and I realized that only Dr. Fisher and ADM Batiste were given an "established" rank (Commander and four-star Admiral, respectively; thanks, David Mack and Kirsten Beyer!). Can you guys help me in determining what rank everybody else - Chief O'Brien, Dr. Leone, Admiral Harriman, Arlen McAteer, etc. - holds?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

So I just finished skimming this entire thread, and I realized that only Dr. Fisher and ADM Batiste were given an "established" rank (Commander and four-star Admiral, respectively; thanks, David Mack and Kirsten Beyer!). Can you guys help me in determining what rank everybody else - Chief O'Brien, Dr. Leone, Admiral Harriman, Arlen McAteer, etc. - holds?

Chief O'Brien - likely a Senior Chief Specialist/Senior Chief Petty Officer but may have been promoted to Master Chief by now.
Dr Leone - Never specificed but as CMO on a Connie, probably a Lt or Lt Cmdr similar to Bones.
Admiral Harriman - Unknown, TLE implies he's fairly senior though.
Arlen McAteer - Never specified, but as base commander one or two pip seems likely.

 

[Avro Arrow]

No five pip has been seen on that system or any system in the Prime Timeline.

That's not entirely true. The equivalent to the five-pip rank from Fletcher's notes was used in the TOS movies, it's just hard to tell from a distance because the upper admiral ranks all look similar.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

That's not entirely true. The equivalent to the five-pip rank from Fletcher's notes was used in the TOS movies, it's just hard to tell from a distance because the upper admiral ranks all look similar.

Sort of. There is definately a fifth rank above Captain seen with the "Monster Maroons" (which assuming army-style insignia (as used in the STID dress uniforms) would be "five star") but the pips appear to correspond to the stripes on naval flag uniforms which start at 0 and end at three in peacetime (ADM/GEN) and four in war (FADM/GA or FM).

Is possible that the C-in-C was intended to wear a five-pip stripe (similar to RW USN Admiral George Dewey) in addition to other uniform changes to distinguish him from four-pip Fleet Admirals like Cartwright, however the auctioned selectionhttp://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/File:Collection.jpg doesn't include this an option but rather starts with 0 pips on braid (with given the similarity between the strap insignia and the Captain one is almost certainly Commodore) with 1 to 4 pips on a wider braid and I can't find a good enough picture to show that he was.

Given that a similar system starting at 0 is found in TOS and TNG s1-2 (and flag officers consistently wear a different uniform in TNG s3+, VOY and TNG-M/DS9 4+ I don't see any reason to assume that they abandoned this practice in the mi-2360s.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Another thought that I've been playing with is regarding "Colonel" West.

Most of the fandom assume (myself included) that either West's uniform or his rank were incorrect, and either he should have wore Captains bars (as a colonel) or if he should have been wearing "3 star" uniform then he's a Lieutenant General.

However, I had this idea that - due to a combination of infanty action being rare and requiring very large formations almost by definition (modern day small unit scenarios appear to covered by Starfleet Security "SWAT" teams (cf SEALs perhaps)) - the minimum administrative unit (commanded by a 'captain') would shift up from a modern company to a battalion or even a regiment making an infantry captain equivalent to a navy captain [warrant offficers & chief warrant officers could be introduced as replacement "acting" company leaders] and pushing majors & colonels into flag territory. The Force Commander would (one of) the General(s).

It's a bit of a weird idea, but I think it fits canon to a degree?

 

[The Wormhole]

IIRC, novel continuity already has gone with the idea West really was an Admiral who was simply nicknamed "Colonel."

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

IIRC, novel continuity already has gone with the idea West really was an Admiral who was simply nicknamed "Colonel."

Perhaps, but they also had a Starfleet Ground Forces Lt Colonel Jan Kincade (tho contrary to my suggestion above, this appeared to rank with Starfleet (Exploration Division) Commander so there's no consensus on this.

Arguably, the use of Commander as a rank for ground forces/base defense unit officers in Siege of AR-558 which was junior to a Captain potentially overrides the 'Jan Kincade' note, but wouldn't go against my idea.

To expand on the idea. Standing ground forces are mainly Colonial/Local Defense units restricted to the their home planet/system (cf post-Unity Bajoran Militia) made up mainly of enlisted, NCOs and "mustangs".

Tier 1: Private, Corporal, Sergeant (enlisted & JNCOs, equiv of Able Crewman to Petty Officer)
Tier 2: Staff Sergeant, Master Sergeant, Sergeant Major or Master Sergeant to Chief Master Sergeant (SNCOs equivalent of Chief to Senior Chief). Section & Platoon Leadership.
Tier 3: Local Duties Officer (Warrant Officer or "Acting Ensign"). Subordinate to Starfleet regular officers. Platoon and Squadron Staff Officers. Default address is "Mister" or alternative gendered form by superiors and sir (or equivalent) by subordinates.
Tier 4: Local Duties Officer - Junior Grade (CWO/LDO "Lieutenant"). Ranks with Lieutenant JG in protocol (and may be refered to as such on Joint Duty), but is subordinate to all Bridge Officers. Platoon and Squadron Commanders. Default address is "Mister" or alternative gendered form by superiors and sir (or equivalent) by subordinates.
Tier 5: Local Duties Officer - Field Grade (CWO/LDO "Commander"). Ranks with Lieutenant Commander in protocol, but is subordinate to Executive Officers or Commanding Officers regardless of rank. Typically acts as Battalion Commander or Strategic/Special Operations Officer on Joint Assignments. Default address is "Mister" or alternative gendered form by superiors and sir (or equivalent) by subordinates.
Tier 6: Local Duties Officer - Commanding (CWO/LDO "Captain"). Ranks with Commander or junior Captain in protocol (and may be refered to as Captain) but is subordinate to Commanding Officers regardless of rank. Typically acts as Chief of Staff (Ground Forces) to Starfleet flag officers or civilian leadership. Default address is "Mister" or alternative gendered form by superiors and sir (or equivalent) by subordinates.
Tier 7: HQ Staff. LDOs may be promoted laterally or upwards to the rank of Brigade Major (equivalent of Commodore), Division Colonel (equivalent of Rear Admiral), Branch Colonel (equivalent of Vice Admiral) or General to fill staff/advisory positions as needed. Default address is "Mister" or alternative gendered form by superiors and sir (or equivalent) by subordinates.

NB: Regardless of rank overall command of field operations rests with the senior Starfleet Command Division Officer unless otherwise delegated by a Starfleet Commodore or higher.

Thoughts?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Even for those who don't accept the existence of a Starfleet Marine Corps (or whatever the hell the ground forces would be called - I just prefer SFMC), it seems unlikely that 'Colonel' would be a nickname. It sure doesn't sound like one.

Although it can be a position and not a rank...

Me, I suspect that West would have been given a unique SFMC uniform, except the costume designers didn't bother to invent one for him because it would never be used again.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Even for those who don't accept the existence of a Starfleet Marine Corps (or whatever the hell the ground forces would be called - I just prefer SFMC), it seems unlikely that 'Colonel' would be a nickname. It sure doesn't sound like one.

I agree it doesn't sound like a 'nickname' to me either.

Personally, I prefer the TrekLit term "Starfleet Ground Forces" for non-starship/non-starbase personnel, perhaps with the clarification "Commandos" for the 'high-speed' special operations-types.

Although it can be a position and not a rank...

Me, I suspect that West would have been given a unique SFMC uniform, except the costume designers didn't bother to invent one for him because it would never be used again.

Yes it can be a title, in fact available evidence would suggest that it was.

I don't think a full variant uniform would be necessary (after all, the "Monster Maroons" are a fairly "Marines-esque" uniform anyway), however a different shirt (ideally dark blue for continuity with the 'Federation forces' in TFF) and ideally a different breast logo would have been sufficient.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I saw a fan-made SFMC uniform once which really intrigued me. I dearly wish it was canon. It was the Monster Maroon uniform, but in black.

 

[Tenacity]

It was the Monster Maroon uniform, but in black.

Shouldn't the color for a marine be khaki?

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I always thought that green made the most sense for ground forces (group with Tactical but with a different insignia). Unless the wearer is in a desert environment in which case khaki/tan/white makes sense.

 

[J.T.B.]

Shouldn't the color for a marine be khaki?

Well... British forces use "khaki" for darker, drab brownish-green material, originally wool, while US forces use it for lighter tan shades, originally cotton for warm weather. Neither is really particular to marines. Both US and Royal Marines have a unique and distinctive green color for their service dress uniforms, though; the USMC's usually called forest or forestry green, and the RM's "Lovat green."

 

[Little_kingsfan]

Hey, guys, back again with another question: while rereading Sight Unseen set in 2386, I noticed that Alyssa Ogawa was onboard as Titan's nurse, but back in Indistinguishable from Magic (set in 2382-2383), Ogawa mentioned transferring off Titan to provide her son with a more stable home life on a starbase and was promoted to Doctor. Was that a temporary promotion, or is that entire book just kinda ignored? Did she rejoin the crew in the two and a half missing years (chronologically speaking) between Fallen Gods and The Poisoned Chalice?

Speaking of Fallen Gods, I'm assuming that Titan was able to track down and reclaim their stolen Andorian crewmembers, considering that at least Lt. Pava sh’Aqabaa was also seen in a later book. Am I remembering this all correctly, or am I missing something?

 

[The Wormhole]

Was that a temporary promotion, or is that entire book just kinda ignored?

Indistinguishable from Magic has since been more or less ignored in the literature continuity. There's actually a story to go along with that consisting of something screwbally going on behind the scenes at Pocket of which I don't remember the full details. I'm sure someone else will be along shortly who does know the full story.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

IIRC, novel continuity already has gone with the idea West really was an Admiral who was simply nicknamed "Colonel."

 

[JD]

Indistinguishable from Magic has since been more or less ignored in the literature continuity. There's actually a story to go along with that consisting of something screwbally going on behind the scenes at Pocket of which I don't remember the full details. I'm sure someone else will be along shortly who does know the full story.

Yeah, the whole situation with IfM is a bit strange, some books have ignored it, but then some have used elements from it.

 

[Cap'n Crunch]

Speaking of Fallen Gods, I'm assuming that Titan was able to track down and reclaim their stolen Andorian crewmembers, considering that at least Lt. Pava sh’Aqabaa was also seen in a later book. Am I remembering this all correctly, or am I missing something?

They weren't taken, they we're duplicated using the transporter and the duplicates were kidnapped. IIRC, the Titan crew weren't even aware of the duplicates. And no, it hasn't been followed up or even mentioned (I think) in the novels since.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Looking at the different systems used through the eras, it's clear that Starfleet has Rear Admirals, who initially wore two pips (UESF era) then shifted to a naval-style broad and medium stripe, then back to two pips, this time on a flag officer specific uniform potentially placing them one grade higher than their UESF equivalent (now two grades above Cdre not one). Vice Admirals appear to have had a similar transition from three pips, to a broad stripe between two medium and then three pips (two, then three grades above Cdre).

Therefore, in order to reconcile these systems we must insert a one-pip flag rank between Commodore (which for Starfleet appears to follow the 'Captain that commands Captains' line officer meaning of the role, unlike UESF which appears to have used them as flag officers) and Rear Admiral. Notionally, this would be Rear Admiral, Lower Half, but this rank was only introduced in the US due to the fact that Rear Admiral was already two different paygrades, therefore a new rank is more logical and FASA's Branch Admiral seems to fit (presumably so called because their authority and role is determined by the HQ branch they are part of, not a semi-autonomous billet like a ship or station).