Ranks of characters

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Little_kingsfan, Jan 28, 2016.

  1. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Looking at the different systems used through the eras, it's clear that Starfleet has Rear Admirals, who initially wore two pips (UESF era) then shifted to a naval-style broad and medium stripe, then back to two pips, this time on a flag officer specific uniform potentially placing them one grade higher than their UESF equivalent (now two grades above Cdre not one). Vice Admirals appear to have had a similar transition from three pips, to a broad stripe between two medium and then three pips (two, then three grades above Cdre).

    Therefore, in order to reconcile these systems we must insert a one-pip flag rank between Commodore (which for Starfleet appears to follow the 'Captain that commands Captains' line officer meaning of the role, unlike UESF which appears to have used them as flag officers) and Rear Admiral. Notionally, this would be Rear Admiral, Lower Half, but this rank was only introduced in the US due to the fact that Rear Admiral was already two different paygrades, therefore a new rank is more logical and FASA's Branch Admiral seems to fit (presumably so called because their authority and role is determined by the HQ branch they are part of, not a semi-autonomous billet like a ship or station).
     
  2. Little_kingsfan

    Little_kingsfan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    It's hard to remember what was kept from Indistinguishable from Magic and what was ignored - I know Geordi took a demotion from Captain to Commander in order to remain Chief Engineer on the Enterprise rather than take command of an SCE ship (the U.S.S. Musgrave, I believe it was), Lt. Cmdr. Barclay retained his promotion upon his return to the Galen, and I'm pretty sure a reference was made to Lt. Cmdr. Nog serving on the Challenger in between the destruction of DS9 and the opening of the new one (although that does play a little fast and loose with the timeline) - but there are other things I'm not so sure about, such as if Ogawa also took a temporary assignment on the Challenger.

    Also in Indistinguishable from Magic (and I believe also in either The Fall or Prey, I can't remember which one at the moment), there was a reference made to Commander Mor glasch Tev serving as First Officer of the da Vinci, when the last time we actually saw the ship in A Singular Destiny, the First Officer was Commander Domenica Corsi. Did she get a promotion in the intervening years or transfer to another ship, or did something else happen?
     
  3. Paris

    Paris Commodore Commodore

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    ^Maybe Corsi got Mugrave?
     
  4. Little_kingsfan

    Little_kingsfan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Hey, everyone, I'm back with another question: I recently got my hands on the one The Lost Era book missing from my collection until now - Deny Thy Father - and was wondering what rank Owen Paris held in that book. In fact, the only admiral that had a specified grade, Vice Admiral Horace Bonner, appeared to be below him (implying that Paris was a four-star Admiral); however, it was then mentioned at the end of the book that he was about to take command of the U.S.S. Al-Batani, which to me reads like he was like one of the 23rd century ship captains who held the rank of Commodore like Matt Decker or Bob Wesley, which would make him a one-star. Plus, I think that at the beginning of Voyager (2371), Paris was a Vice Admiral and later promoted to four-star by 2376 (Season 5 or 6 of Voyager, if I'm not mistaken); if he was a four-star in 2355-2357, why would he be a three-star again in 2371?
     
  5. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I haven't actually read the book, so I can't speak vis a vis VADM Bonner, but if he was in command of the Al-Batani rather than placing his flag on the ship (ala RADM Riker in the current Titan novels) then he should have a maximum rank of Commodore, and wearing either Quinn's 'no-pip' flag uniform or the regular uniform with Sloan's four pips over a bar (representing 'Deputy Director' in Sloan's case but that's (mostly) a title not a rank so it could be usable for CDREs as well).
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2017
  6. Cicero

    Cicero Admiral Admiral

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    I tend to think that Colonel was his first name, like Gouverneur Morris or the surprising number of people named Major (one was even a Major General).
     
  7. flandry84

    flandry84 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Perhaps he (West) managed some 23rd century rock n roll artists!:angel:

    Or inherited a fried chicken empire.:cool:
     
  8. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Honestly, IMO the main difficulty with Patrick West is that the three things we know about him, basically contradict each other: He is referred as "Colonel" (which - regardless of whether it's a title or rank - suggests a background in ground forces); but he wears the uniform of a Starfleet flag officer (suggesting a background in the fleet); and wears a uniform consistent with a mid-level flag officer (usually id'ed as a VADM but not confirmed) rather than the line officer uniform that a colonel should be wearing.

    IMO, the most minimal 'fix' would be to suggest that West's unit is the equivalent of NAVSOC (a 'fighting unit' within the regular chain of command) and that he is properly VADM Patrick "Colonel" West, commanding the 'navy shirts' used for the Nimbus III rescue op.
     
  9. Little_kingsfan

    Little_kingsfan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If I remember correctly, Janeway said her first shipboard assignment out of the Academy (which, given that this book has her assigned to Adm. Paris' staff, doesn't contradict that) was on the Al-Batani under the command of Owen Paris, implying that Paris was a Captain. My saying Admiral Paris is a one-star in this book makes it more feasible for me to believe he took command of the Al-Batani as a Rear Admiral, lower half/Commodore than believing he took a demotion to Captain and then worked his way back up the flag ranks (especially if in this book he's a four-star admiral), although that is also theoretically possible.
     
  10. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Paris' stint on the Al-Batani (not specifically ID'ed as CO) appears to have taken place shortly after the events of Deny Thy Father, meaning that unlikely there has been any change in his status.

    Given that per onscreen canon he was promoted to 4-star as late as 2378 (although it could have been as early as '76, Pathfinder and Inside Man contradict themselves on this point, but Tom's hallucination from Persistance of Vision puts him as a 3-star c 2369-2372 (based on him wearing the 'Type E' variant first seen in '69) and DTF (and the Arias Expediation) take place around twenty years earlier, I think it's fairly unlikely that he's even a VADM at this point (if he's 'in charge' it's because he has greater expertise on the DTF situation than Bonner, rather than rank), but given that he's consistently refered to as
    'Admiral' in both Mosaic and DTF then he's likely a one-star Admiral during the period (usu. IDed as RADML in fanon, but I prefer Counter Admiral, Flotilla/Group Admiral or Branch Admiral (from FASA)), or a 2-star at most (RADM).
     
  11. Ensign_Rowan_McGrath

    Ensign_Rowan_McGrath Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    The rank situation in The Undiscovered Country is an odd one.
    - Valeris is addressed as a lieutenant, but her insignia is lieutenant commander.
    - Janice Rand is a lieutenant junior grade in the film, though is a lieutenant commander in "Flashback".
    - The Excelsior's navigator is a commander in the film (and much younger), though is a lieutenant junior grade in "Flashback" (and much older).
    - A Starfleet admiral is addressed as "captain" despite her insignia.

    This largely has to do with them tossing whatever uniforms they could at cast members that would fit from the previous five films that used them.
     
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  12. Enterprise1701

    Enterprise1701 Commodore Commodore

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    The Fall - The Poisoned Chalice features a "Lieutenant Colonel" who is a member of "Starfleet Ground Forces".
     
  13. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I had always assumed West was part of Starfleet's ground forces, and that they used Army ranks rather than the Navy ranks Starfleet uses. They just wear the same uniforms as regular Starfleet.
     
  14. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nods. Jan Kincade, in and out of universe a somewhat divissive character.

    There may be two "Starfleet Ground Forces", the 'base defense units' (see The Siege of AR-558) who appear to be similar to the RAF Regiment or a Seebees/SEALs combo (and use navy ranks) and the most unseen (reserve infantry/black ops?) army-style units that LCOL Kincade comes from.
     
  15. Little_kingsfan

    Little_kingsfan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't think so, particularly because Crewman Fabian Stevens transferred to the Musgrave because Corsi didn't want to serve with her husband, so unless he transferred out, I can't see Corsi taking command of the Musgrave.
     
  16. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And the people doing the costumes on STVI didn't really understand the rank structure and color-coding that Robert Fletcher had so meticulously worked out on the previous films. That's why you have things like Valeris' turtleneck not matching the trim on her uniform, unlike every other officer we saw in II-VI. Supposedly someone noticed this error after Cattrall's first day of shooting, but they couldn't afford to reshoot her scenes, so they were stuck with the mismatching uniform for the entire film.
     
  17. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I guess it wouldn't have worth it to add a scene where she changed uniforms and put on a correct one.:lol:
     
  18. Little_kingsfan

    Little_kingsfan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Hey, everybody, I recently finished reading Drastic Measures (the second Discovery book) and managed to plow through Architects of Infinity in a few hours, and felt the need to inquire about some characters. First of all, if I'm reading the book(s) correctly, in the years between the two Discovery books, Admiral Anderson has risen from Commanding Officer of Starbase 11 in 2246 (with an unspecified grade of Admiral) to Sector Commander of the Shenzhou's area of operations in 2255/2256 (during which time he's a four-star admiral).

    Secondly - and I think this happened in the last Voyager book too - both Tom Paris and B'Elanna Torres are still Lieutenant Commanders despite being (exclusively) referred to as "Commander" throughout Architects of Infinity. In addition, there was one instance (during a scene with Dr. Sal) where Hugh Cambridge was referred to as "Commander", implying a promotion to Lieutenant Commander (possible) or a typo (the author meant to say/write "Counselor", which is probably more likely).

    If I'm mistaken on any of these, please let me know.
     
  19. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Admiral Admiral

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    That is permissible protocol for anyone ranked Lt. Commander. Hell, that was Chakotay's rank throughout the TV series, yet he's always referred to exclusively as Commander. Even in the credits.
     
  20. Little_kingsfan

    Little_kingsfan Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I realize that there's both precedent and protocol, but it's one thing to do that on a television screen where you can see the pips, it's another in a book, especially in a book that does specifically mention a Lieutenant Commander (Atlee Fife) and Commander (Liam O'Donnell and Clarissa Glenn).