Quark's root beer analogy of the Federation

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Ragitsu, May 3, 2022.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That seems reasonable except the Female Changeling left standing orders basically to kill the Alpha Quadrant.
     
  2. Oddish

    Oddish Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Wouldn't they have done that already, if they could?
     
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  3. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    No. The goal of the Dominion before the Changeling virus was detected was to conquer the Alpha Quadrant but then keep it going under Dominion rule. It would have been brutal and tyrannical, but it would not have been the extermination of all life.

    Had the virus not threatened the entire Great Link, the Female Shapeshifter would have surrendered after the Allies had surrounded Dominion forces at Cardassia. Grief from the imminent extinction of her people is what drove her to order the extermination of the Cardassian species and to order Dominion forces to fight to the last soldier rather than surrender. This would have cost hundreds of thousands, if not millions, more Starfleet officers' lives before the last Jem'Hadar was defeated -- a Pyrrhic vitory. The Section 31 virus completely backfired on them. Only Odo's intervention to provide the cure and thwart Section 31's attempted genocide saved the Federation from an even greater bloodbath (and saved the Cardassian race from extermination).
     
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  4. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    As a shadow organization to be thwarted by principled characters...or as a "necessary" evil covertly employed by The Federation?
     
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  5. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    As a storytelling device that gets used as antagonists and philosophical counterpoints to Star Trek's rampant idealism.
     
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  6. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hm.
     
  7. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    There is a such thing as a work of fiction meant for an adult audience being unrealistic or dishonest in its depiction of idealism. A work can advocate for idealism without being dishonest.
     
  8. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Yes, sometimes Star Trek's idealism and utopianism feels unearned. I prefer DS9 and TOS because being the good guy SOMETIMES doesn't work out or ends badly.

    They still try but sometimes it ends poorly, which makes the victories feel stronger.
     
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  9. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Unwelcome or unpleasant.

    ...undesirable?
     
  10. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    If your ideal of an idealistic future is one in which there is no interpersonal conflict and people do not mourn the deaths of those they love, then that's a dishonest idea of idealistic future.
     
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  11. TheForge

    TheForge Lieutenant Red Shirt

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    Do not agree. The Vulcans act all high and mighty but we know they are only in it for themselves.
     
  12. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    Who's "we"? I don't know that at all. Being part of the Federation helps the Vulcans but it helps everyone else in the alliance also.
     
  13. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Even if the latter were true, Sci, I don't see how you can equate it with...

    ...secret police...
    ...secret trials (if any!)...

    and

    ...secret executions (i.e., murders).

    Not to mention all the "mundane" bloodless (at least, initially) cultural destabilization they engage in on a regular basis. [sarcasm]What a great counterbalance to Federation principles.[/sarcasm]
     
  14. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I don't equate it with that.

    Saying that ST has sometimes been dishonest in its portrayal of an "idealistic" future is a metatextual complaint. It is a complaint about the creative decisions the artists have made. It does not mean that I endorse the in-universe behavior of antagonists.

    To make a comparison, if I complain that Dudley Do-Right is unrealistically idealistic, this does not mean that I am endorsing Snidely Whiplash's decision to tie Nell Fenwick to the train tracks.

    I have been very unequivocal in my argument that, while the use of Section 31 as antagonists has usually been a good creative decision, in-universe Section 31 are unquestionably evil, unnecessary, corrupt, and have caused the Federation more harm than good.
     
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  15. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wonder if Quark's sentiment found more of a home among Japanese viewers (is Star Trek big in The Land of the Rising Sun?). Apparently, root beer is very unpopular in Japan. Why? Well, Japanese medicine is often given root beer flavoring the same as how Western medicine is given grape flavoring. In essence, actual root beer is associated with the taste of medicine :(.
     
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  16. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I thought of a "C plot" for a random DS9 episode.

    Quark is hunting for a lost recipe of "an old Earth drink" that was "heavily commercialized when Hew-mons knew better/had better business sense"; he may even comment on the logo ("red and white"...alluding to Coca-Cola, perhaps?). The episode would end with him finding the recipe and having Chief O'Brien try a freshly produced quantity of a dark, bubbly liquid; Miles takes a tentative sip while Quark looks on with a large anticipatory smile.

    Miles (visibly surprised and a little disappointed): "This...this is root beer."
    Quark (his smile rapidly transforms into shock): "What? What are you talking about? I spent a Nagus' ransom of latinum to acquire that list of ingredients! This is an ancient Earth delicacy no one has had in centuries!"
    Miles (now lightly smirking): "You may want to get your money back. Oh, it's a bit sweeter than usual, but I'd recognize that flavor anywhere."
     
  17. kkt

    kkt Commodore Commodore

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    It would be funny, but I don't think they'd do it. One of the 10 commandments of commercial TV is "Thou shalt not make fun of thy potential advertisers, nor mention possibly competing products."
     
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  18. Trekker09

    Trekker09 Captain Captain

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    The label with the tree growing out of earth....I think the prop sold for $150 on EBay :hugegrin:
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Legate Duhmar

    Legate Duhmar Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    They could have played it up as a "cola recipe" and gotten away with it. Seems like a great B plot for the DS9 animated series that should be made.
     
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  20. Ragitsu

    Ragitsu Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Was there a closeup in the episode featuring that bottle? If not, well...I am absolutely flabbergasted as to how you guys pick out those details on SD resolution footage.