Quark's root beer analogy of the Federation

Same diff.

 

Well, if we're gonna go making up stuff that wasn't in the show or even implied...

 

Hey, once the show introduced a canonical (and insidious) "Section 31", all bets were off.

 

Section 31 != the Federation.

The former is evil; the latter is not.

And yes, despite what the propaganda of the day might claim, there is still such a thing as good and evil.

 

If the Federation could not remain viable without S31 looking out for it behind the scenes, then could we not say that if nothing else, it's a necessary evil?

 

In this case, there is no such thing as a "necessary evil". That's why they have Starfleet Intelligence. That, and that alone, is the legitimate intelligence gathering division (both foreign and domestic) of the Federation.

If SI can't get it done, it doesn't deserve to get done. Simple as that.

 

Which is the joke, essentially.

Garak and Quark both come from cultures where such insidious effectiveness of manipulation can only be the work of a carefully cultivated scheme.

The Federation is doing it accident.

 

But that is not the Federation's problem.

Even if there's no such thing as a good deed on Ferenginar or Cardassia..in the Federation, there IS. That's just the way it goes.

 

I think it's a fairly good justification for their continued hostility with so many other powers. The Federation is never any good at convincing people of their good intentions.

So the Romulans keep looking for the other shoe to drop.

 

I mean, a really cynical person would say, "Oh, it just so happened that Bajor was dependent on Federation assistance after the end of the occupation that the Federation did nothing to end. Just so happened!" Which I don't agree with, but I can understand their frustration at Bajor being so dependent.

But, if you give someone assistance that they need to survive but never give them the capacity to become self-sufficient, you have, indeed, made them dependent upon you. And I would say that if Bajor is dependent on Federation tech but is never actually given the capacity to develop and operate that tech itself (because of "Prime Directive" concerns), then it's fair to characterize that as the Federation making Bajor dependent on Federation assistance.

True! And when the Circle took over the Bajoran government and wanted the Federation out, the Federation left.

... And then the Federation got itself involved in the internal affairs of Bajor by proving the Cardassians were arming the Circle and thwarting their coup, thereby giving back de facto control of the Wormhole back to the Federation.

Listen, I'm not saying these guys did the wrong thing. But let's not pretend the Federation isn't also trying to influence Bajor or that this isn't a form of diet cultural imperialism.

Yes, but, as Star Trek: Deep Space Nine wants us to remember, the lines can be blurry, too.

False premise. The Federation can and has remained viable without Section 31. In fact, canonically, out of ten Section 31 operations we have seen canonically, most of them have either failed or have produced major blowback that actively harmed the Federation more than it would have been had S31 not been involved:

Spoiler: ENT S4; DIS S2; SNW S1; Star Trek Into Darkness; DS9 S6; DS9 S7; Star Trek Nemesis; LD S3

• 2154: United Earth Section 31 operation to allow the abduction of Interspecies Medical Exchange physician Phlox of Denobula Triaxa by agents of the Klingon Empire leads to development of the Augment Virus and widespread disfigurement of large percentage of the Klingon population. This fuels Klingon anger and paranoia at United Earth and its eventual Federation (ENT: "Affliction"/"Divergence")
• 2155: United Earth Section 31 leaks classified information to United Earth Starfleet in order to facilitate UESF infiltration of the hijacked Orpheus Mining Complex on Mars, preventing xenophobic terrorist organization Terra Prime from attacking UESF Headquarters to drive out aliens from Sol system (ENT: "Terra Prime")
• 2230s: Section 31 operation to develop portable personal time travel technology, codenamed Project Daedalus, is compromised, leading to Klingon raid on Doctari Alpha. This causes the death of temporal researcher Mike Burnham, the temporal displacement of his wife Gabrielle, and the orphaning of their daughter Michael. Temporal displacement of Gabrielle Burnham eventually leads to the Control Crisis of 2257-58
• 2257: Section 31 operation to protect Chancellor L'Rell from Kol-Sha of the House of Kor's attempted coup. Operation is successful, leading to the
• 2257-58: Section 31 Super A.I. Control is compromised as a result of exposure to an unknown A.I. from the distant future -- exposure occurring as a direct result of the temporal displacement of Gabrielle Burnham and the failure of Project Daedalus. Control betrays Section 31 and the rest of the Federation and launches systematic campaign to exterminate organic life from the Milky Way Galaxy. USS Enterprise and USS Discovery defeat Control, but the Discovery is forced to travel to the 32nd Century to prevent Control from gaining access to advanced data that would enable its genocidal agenda. (DIS: "Project Daedalus," "If Memory Serves, "Such Sweet Sorrow, Parts I & II," et al) As a direct result of the battle against Control, inhabitants of Kiley 279 develop warp bomb technology prematurely and nearly exterminate themselves in 2259. (SNW: "Strange New Worlds")
• 2259 (Kelvin Timeline): Starfleet Commanding Admiral and Section 31 head, Fleet Admiral Alexander Marcus, develops plan to revive 20th Century Augments led by Khan Noonien Sighn from cryogenic freeze and deploy the Augments as Section 31 assets. Section 31's goal is to provoke a war between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, enabling Marcus to seize control of the Federation in a coup d'etat and defeat Qo'noS. Khan rebels against Section 31's manipulations, leading to the destruction of the Kelvin Memorial Archive in London, an attack on Starfleet Headquarters, the exposure of Section 31's plan to the crew of the USS Enterprise, and the crash-landing of the secret Section 31 ship USS Vengeance into metropolitan San Francisco; thousands of civilians are killed, and Khan kills Marcus himself. (Star Trek: Into Darkness)
• 2372: Section 31 begins operation to attempt genocide of the Founders of the Dominion. Section 31 agent infects Bajoran Militia Constable Odo, chief of security aboard Starbase Deep Space 9, with a deadly virus tailored for Founder physiology. Odo unknowingly infects the Great Link later that year, and the species is on the verge of extinction by 2375. The desperation caused by her impending death and the near-extinction of the Founder race drives the so-called Female Shapeshifter to order the extermination of the Cardassian race and to refuse to surrender when Dominion and Breen forces are surrounded in orbit of Cardassia Prime. Only the intervention of Odo, carrying a cure forcibly extracted from Section 31, prompts the Female Shapeshifter to order the surrender of Dominion forces and to negotiate a peaceful settlement. (DS9: "When It Rains...," "Tacking into the Wind," "Extreme Measures," "The Dogs of War, "What You Leave Behind, Parts I & II")
• 2374: Section 31 agent Luther Sloan abducts the chief medical officer of Starbase Deep Space 9, Dr. Julian Bashir, and subjects him to psychological manipulation and abuse in order to determine if Dr. Bashir is a Dominion agent. Upon determining Bashir's loyalty to the Federation, Sloan attempts to recruit Bashir; Bashir rejects Sloan's offer and vows to bring them down. (DS9: "Inquisition")
• 2375: Sloan successfully manipulates Bashir into incriminating Romulan Senator Cretak, preventing her from being named to the Romulan Continuing Committee and allowing Section 31 mole Koval, Chair of the Tal Shiar, to be placed onto the Continuing Committee in her stead. (DS9: "Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges") As Chair of the Tal Shiar, Koval fails to prevent the rise of Shinzon of Remus. Four years later, Shinzon's agent Senator Tal'Aura successfully assassinates Praetor Hiren and the rest of the Romulan Senate, seizing power in a coup d'etat and placing Remans in control of powerful ships from the Romulan fleet. Shinzon subsequently targets Earth in a genocidal attack that is only barely thwarted by the USS Enterprise with the assistance of the Romulan Imperial Fleet. (Star Trek: Nemesis)
• Circa mid-2370s-2381: Section 31 appears involved in an operation to place cybernetic implant into the brain of Starfleet Ensign Samanthan Rutherford that manipulates his memory and personality to unknown purposes. Section 31 also engages in operation to fake the death of Starfleet Lieutenant J.G. William Boimler, also to unknown purposes. (LD: "Reflections," "Crisis Point 2: Paradoxus")

So, to summarize: out of ten known canonical Section 31 operations, exactly two of them did not either fail or lead to devastating blowback to the Federation, and one of them appears to still be ongoing (meaning the jury is still out there).

This is a remarkably incompetent organization that is absolutely not necessary for the security of the Federation, even from a completely morally neutral point of view.

 

I mean, the Federation is doing it by accident, but it's also doing it by "accident." Like, sure, they're not invading anybody, but they're certainly not above doing things like, exposing Romulan assistance to the House of Duras in the Klingon Civil War to help out the Federation-friendly Gowron, or exposing Cardassian assistance to the Circle to keep the Federation-friendly government in power, or openly trying to influence Bajoran elites into joining the Federation.

It doesn't have to be the Federation's "problem" for their point -- that the Federation is trying to spread its values to their peoples and to persuade the Cardassian and Ferengi peoples to abandon some of their cultural values -- to be accurate.

 

I hate Section 31 (both the concept and the actual execution) with a burning passion that would make a main sequence star green with envy.

 

'Good and evil' aka 'right and wrong', are concepts that cannot exist without the other, to claim that one of the pair has triumphed over its polar opposite is absurd. What isn't absurd is working hard to develop a society that encourages right and discourages wrong as well as Gene's vision. Where is Gabriel Bell when you need him?

 

Sounds like me and "Half a Life".

 

Whether you find the portrayed cultural practice and the coercion of Timicin detestable or not, at least "Half a Life" makes the viewer ponder a weighty subject; Section 31 is "darker and edgier" 90s stuff that is contrary to the spirit of Star Trek, plain and simple.

 

I don't have an issue with Section 31. But I also note that FANS have created Section 31 as a "secret group the Federation" needs when they are nothing more than the insane Admirals with their own group. They make incompetent superweapons and bad decisions our heroes work against.

 

I respectfully disagree. And as much as I'd like to explain why, it's WAY off topic. Maybe if we ever get a "The Trek episode you hate most and why" topic, I will vent on the subject properly.

The disease they dropped on the Great Link seemed pretty competent. And it would have effectively obliterated the brains of the Dominion.

 

He'll be along in a couple of years.

 

Maybe, but even if they killed all the Founders, the Vorta and Jem Hadar would be out for revenge. They'd have a good try at killing every member of every Federation race.

 

That or the whole Dominion would disintegrate into chaos.