Well, one thing for sure. That is not the case in the Battlestar Galatica world. They have money and prostitution. Curious though, Lee paid her after.
Curious...
Prostitution in the Federation
- Thread starter Takomaguy
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Well, one thing for sure. That is not the case in the Battlestar Galatica world. They have money and prostitution. Curious though, Lee paid her after.
Curious...
Only, unlike the French System, there's a technological edge that allows it to actually work, namely replication (though there are others), so that basic needs can actually be fulfilled relatively cheaply.
This doesn't work today, of course, because basic needs, such as housing and medicine, are expensive, requiring huge amounts of time, effort, and resources.
Yeah, but haven't you ever wondered how replicators would work in the real world? How much would they cost to make? And what about the power comsuption and cost. And I won't even get into the software. I just hope it wouldn't be like Vista...
Originally, if they could indeed make replicators, I thought it would only be for
major major industrial uses. Maybe medical. But the kind of wide-spread uses in the 24th Century. I don't know...
Part of being human is that we need stuff ro do. This is why I really don't believe in wide-spread replicator use. Part of being human is that we need a reason to do stuff. Accomplishment, achievement, food, money, sex, it really doesn't matter.
I believe that the Federation is some kind of mixed-market economy that provides an effective safety net. They've educated the population to understand that nothing comes without shared sacrifice. Now, they are probably taxed at 50% on income, and maybe 20% on every sale. Given the scope of the Federation, the size scope and vitality of their population, there trade policies, and the starfleet, they have a robust economy.
But the Federation is probably wise enough to understand that beings aren;t perfect. People are going to do what they are going to do.
Remember, the do have prison;s in the Fedeartion.
There is crime, gambling, fist-fights, thievery, and prostitution in the Federation. One thing I'll give the Battlestar Galatica re-boot, they don't sugar coat it.
This is the central philosophy of Trek.. humanity has "evolved" and moved on from our time.
In our time we educate ourselves partly because being dumb just sucks and partly to be able to do a certain job so we can earn money and pay for our lifestyle and the necessities (housing, clothing, food, entertainment).
Since those necessities are covered by the Federation humanity had time to do other stuff and Trek tells us that people have moved from learning because we have to to learning because we like to and are curious.
It is an idealized version of humanity.
As to replicator production and the logistic behind it.. i believe much of the simpler production is entirely automated. Computer systems are sophisticated enough to not need human input.. humans just install the machines (and maybe not even that if they have automated building systems) and then let them do the stuff they were programmed for.
All they would need are raw materials to do the inner workings of replicators and at some point not even that when replicators replicate other replicators.
They would only need energy and these are provided by fusion or anti-matter energy plants.
There isn't any thought about cost.. as long as the Federation has the raw materials handy they don't think about cost.
In theory they could only build Sovereigns because they don't cost money in the general sense but engineer work hours and raw materials.
It's impractical for other reasons (crew usage, smaller models can be used better in special roles) but monetary cost isn't one of them.
I think everybody knows that Trek isn't realistic.. it's a utopia. A thought as to how humanity could unite and better themselves in the future. The fact that the people still lie, cheat, fight and kill makes for good drama because otherwise it would be a pretty dull show when all misgivings are coming from aliens.
Actually, they don't. They have asylums and penal colonies where the patients undergo therapy to be cured of their illness of criminality. Therapy is the sentence for any and all crimes, from purchase of space vessel with counterfeit currency ("Mudd's Women") to murder ("Conscience of the King"), aiding and abetting the enemy ("For the Cause") or attempted genocide ("Whom Gods Destroy", "Broken Link").
It does seem that these asylums are in good and constant use, though - crime has not been eradicated even though criminals can be cured afterwards. But a single hospital seems to be sufficient for handling all the "incurable" cases in the Federation, as per "Whom Gods Destroy". Clearly, something has truly changed in the future.
Timo Saloniemi
What about the New Zealand Penal Settlement from Voyager's "Caretaker"? Looked like a prison to me.
All we know is that Tom Paris was there to get rehabilitated, with regular reviews on whether he was eligible to emerge back to the society, rather than a fixed length of incarceration; nothing necessitates his sentence to be different from the standard "six months of forced therapy" that Kasidy Yates and Emil Garak got for their crimes.
We see plenty of holding cells for dealing with people who have to be temporarily held, to stop them from doing immediate harm, or to force them to eventually undergo therapy. But we never hear of long term imprisonment, except when it is called "looking after the incurably insane", as on Elba II.
Timo Saloniemi
We see plenty of holding cells for dealing with people who have to be temporarily held, to stop them from doing immediate harm, or to force them to eventually undergo therapy. But we never hear of long term imprisonment, except when it is called "looking after the incurably insane", as on Elba II.
Timo Saloniemi
By and large, any current 1st-2nd world country has virtually eliminated "poverty" That is not to say that there is no disparity between the rich and the poor, just that poor in the first world is not poor in the third world.
And most poverty issues in the 1st and 2nd world (crime, homelessness, mental instability) can be linked backed to addictions. And then the choice of where to put your resources is what is diminished.
Hunger is also virtually non existent in the U.S. in particular. There are specific cases where for a limited instance someone may miss a meal, but that is an issue with pride or ones current caregiver. These minor fluctuations may never be totally removed - like the single car stopped on the side of the road causes a traffic jam - ebbs in the flow of services may cause minor fluctuations in the micro level where on the macro level people in the Federation may be fat and happy.
The main difference I see between the Federation and a 1st/2nd world country today is the verticality of the economy in the Federation appears to be ungated. Meaning that there is no casting system or class system which impedes the movement of an individual to any other level in the economy. And there appears to be no stigma attached to any particular person as a result of their choice of any particular level of subsistence. Picard seemed to be happy to work designing a water plant (or at least the reason for his unhappiness was not that the job was beneath him or wouldn't provide him with a comfortable existence), tending to his vineyard or captaining a starship. And opportunity seemed to flow through each level of subsistence such that each person could "work to better ourselves and humanity" - the bootstrapping ideal - rather than having the economic system create pools of subsistence, like a stream, where the contours of geography hold water at a certain level, and one must work extremely hard to get out.
Forced therapy???? Is this a Dick Cheney or a Donald Rumsfeld euphamism????
Look, prison doesn't have to be "Oz," or Gitmo for that matter, to be prison. If your movements are restricted, if there is confinement (no matter how benign), you don't food you want, you have to check in or out, you are told when to get up, when to go to bed, and you can't do whatever you want, you are in prison...or still living with your parents.
Cassidy's sentence was bullshit. The Sisco was the best but no one is going to convince me he didn't pull strings on that one.
Face it, there are prisons in the Star Trek world. And if there are prisons, there is crime. And if there is crime, there could very well be prostitution.
By the way, did you hear about the Formula ONe president and the 5 hookers dressed up like Nazis?
No, it's not. That may have been the central theme of early TNG, but early TNG sucked. The central theme of Trek can be found in TOS, in the episode "Arena:"
"We're killers, but we won't kill today."
It is, in other words, an acknowledgement that we are not perfect, that our natures are not superior, that we have not changed. But our society has. And our values have. And so we're going to make a choice to be better than our natures... For now. And we might slip. We might mess up. Tomorrow, we might be killers again. But not today.
In any event, Trek has given us contradictory evidence on whether or not there's money or a monetary exchange system in use in the Federation. Kirk and Picard talk about there not being any money in Star Trek IV, "The Neutral Zone," and First Contact, yet Scotty'd just bought a boat in The Undiscovered Country, Beverly charged a purchase to her account on the Enterprise in "Encounter at Farpoint," characters paid Quark on Deep Space Nine, Quark bought tickets from Earth to DS9 in "Little Green Men," Kirk tells Scotty he's earned his pay in "The Doomsday Machine," an undercover Chief O'Brien helps the Orion Syndicate rob the Bank of Bolias (a Federation Member world) in "Honor Among Thieves," the Orion Syndicate operates within the Federation according to "A Simple Investigation" and "The Ascent," and the Doctor's publishers rush to get his holo-program out in "Author, Author" out of apparent greed.
Obviously things are more complicated than Picard made things out to be. My explanation? The essentials of healthy living are provided for free; you get a nice (if not large) room, free health care, a free education, and free food, just for living. You can live your life in peace and quiet and never have to do a thing if you don't want to, because the Federation is just that prosperous. But if you want something nicer? If you want luxuries, like a beachfront house on Earth? If you want to travel to Vulcan? If you want to buy a book or have a replicator capable of making damn near anything you want? You'll have to get a job and earn it. I think that's an entirely fair system -- no one gets left behind in poverty or want, but no one gets to live a life of luxury without earning it, either. (And I'd sure as hell hope that there's a decent estate tax out there to prevent the rise of a Federation aristocracy.)
The major difference would be that today's prisons exist in order to punish the criminal (confinement is intended to hurt him or her), and in order to keep the criminal away from a life of crime for the duration of the imprisonment. There may be a pious wish that the criminal has learned something by the time of possible release, but that's not a major function of the system.
Trek imprisonment explicitly doesn't work that way. The sentences do not vary in length depending on the severity of the crime - as said, you get six months whether you smuggle for the enemy or attempt to phaser to oblivion an entire species. The sentences aren't designed to hurt, either. TOS insists that all criminals are merely ill and need to be cured, and all "criminal management" facilities shown are described as hospitals of some sort. TNG continues on that theme, with Picard in "Justice" telling that crime is screened against at youth; DS9 then gives us the series of therapy-instead-of-torture sentences, and VOY, while removed from the justice system of the Federation, supports such views whenever dealing with alien crime management.
So a Trek "prison" would be closer to a school of today than to a prison of today. All three would share some basic elements, but not enough to really be considered equal.
Agreed in principle, disagreed on all tjhe specifics. There aren't prisons, but there's a system for coping with crime, and that system is not idle so there is crime. But crime need not be connected to prostitution. Prostitution is often connected to poverty, because sex is something even the absolutely poor can sell - but if there's no poverty, there's little need for prostitution of this particular sort, and when there's no pressing need, there's little or no angle for crime in connection with the prostitution (unless, for some religious or political reason, prostitution itself is labeled a crime). There could still always be prostitution for the goal of extra income (be it money, "money" or other benefits), or prostitution for fun, or as a form of art or religion.
Timo Saloniemi
Didn't claim otherwise.. i said humanity and that the sum of all humans, i.e. the society.
Picard was the best example in First Contact claiming how humanity has evolved beyond yet he's on a personal Vendetta and gets furious when called on it.
Any proof it's Made in the Federation?
She bought goods from a non-Federation planet and in my theory i stated that the Federation may give money to Federation citizens if they have the need for it, i.e. venture outside the Federation. Starfleet personell certainly counts and all of them may have foreign currency accounts.
Same as above.. a non Federation outpost (though run by the Federation and Bajor)
DS9 lies outside Federation Space.. don't recall the exact scene but was he travelling with a Federation ship or with someone else? If it's the latter i can see how the owner might charge for his services.
Could be just the usage of old sayings..
May be just my theory that the Federation has a banking system to provide, invest and handle foreign currency for its members and for Federation needs (see my argument about Federation citizens needing foreign currency when they venture "outside").
Such books or holo-novels are surely sold outside the Fedration too.. maybe he had his eye on some prime real estate on Romulus?
You see.. i can argue about your points too. Point is we never had a coherent and above all consistent look at Federation economy and how it interacts with non-Federation worlds.
Reality says it can't work when you have a cash-less society when you have to deal with money-based economies because barter only gets you so far and may be a pain in the ass sometimes.
It also doesn't nearly explain how you are able to get that beautiful house on Lake Geneva and some other guy only gets an appartment in downtown Moscow.
There has to be a merit-based system because otherwise there would be a huge discontent amongst the populace because you might have invented the Holodeck and only get an appartment with a bad view in a crowded city whereas some dumb guy gets the House with a view but he only gambles his day away.
Yeah, of course you're right. But I also wrote "etc."
Au contraire. Not naive, just parochial. In a strict sense, prostitution is just a term our cuture uses to provide a meaning around an trade of money for sex. When stripped of our social, religious, or cultural biases, we are talking about people entering into the market place and exchanging currency for a service.
Our cultural and social biases form our definitions, and so cannot be entirely excluded. In many cultures (if not most) sex is viewed as something which cannot be bought without being perverted from its nature. Therefore, it cannot, in the view of those cultures, be honestly offered as a service.
If anything, the Federation appears to be a communist democracy with an overabundance of goods and resources.
Yeah, of course you're right. But I also wrote "etc."
Au contraire. Not naive, just parochial. In a strict sense, prostitution is just a term our cuture uses to provide a meaning around an trade of money for sex. When stripped of our social, religious, or cultural biases, we are talking about people entering into the market place and exchanging currency for a service.
Our cultural and social biases form our definitions, and so cannot be entirely excluded. In many cultures (if not most) sex is viewed as something which cannot be bought without being perverted from its nature. Therefore, it cannot, in the view of those cultures, be honestly offered as a service.
Socialist perhaps, but not communist. Rememberm the needs of the one outweighs the needs of the many, at least if I recall correctly, according to Capatain Kirk to Captain Spock.
There are three separate issues here:
- Does prostitution exist in the federation?
- The answer to this one seems to be a qualified yes. There was mention of it in the DS9 episode as someone said earlier in this thread. There were also hints given regarding Risa and other worlds, where it could perhaps be classified as prostitution. Certainly, we know it exists outside the federation from multiple sources. Officially, there is no money in the federation. But when dealing with other races, they certainly do use currency and many of them seem to have personal accounts of some kind.
- This would also depend on the answer to question (3) - regarding the availability of holodecks. If holodeck access was easily bought, then prostitution would become obsolete. If it was "expensive" (again, we are skirting the issue of money), or tightly controlled, then there would be some kind of prostitution.
- Is it legal in the federation?
- This is tricky. Any type of coercive prostitution would certainly be illegal. More likely, you'd have holodeck operators specializing in certain type of programs.
- Don't the holodecks make it obsolete?
- If the access to the holodecks were universal, it would certainly be obsolete. There are more than a few references to people using it for such purposes (Tom Paris: My days of rescuing slave girls are over. Tuvok using it to replicate his wife. Harry Kim complaining about there not being slave girls in the holoprogram. Tom making a comment to B'elanna that 'its not like I caught you dancing with a bunch of naked bolians'. In DS9, Sisko being offered by Vreenak a custom program, and the hundreds of references to the holosuites at Quarks.
- So it does exist and people do use it. Now the question is, if its available, and more importantly accessible, then why does prostitution exist? My opinion is, it can't. We've seen through multiple sources that people are unable to discern holotechnology from reality (VOY, DS9, TNG). If you cannot tell the difference, and you can program the holodeck to suit whatever you want - you just have a completely safe and fulfilling outlet. Even if you have crazy ideas, everything you can do in real life, you can duplicate......Not only can you play out things that would be completely illegal in real life, it is completely safe from disease and other downsides.
- As for 'electrocuting', that has never even been implied. People jump out of planes, take part in epic battles and do a million other dangerous things in the holodeck - getting electrocuted while having sex, suffice it to say, it not going to be a worry.
Yes there have been a number of points raised in this thread, and there is room for another, such as the one you raise.
Tupac, I'm sorry, Tuvok is cut off from the old lady because his captain got him lost somewhere. He's lonely for some loving, so he goes to the holodeck and conjurs up the Mrs. He and the holo-wife have a zesty session or two, or three, or... well you get the picture.
He starts running this program on the regular. Is Tuvok cheating on the wife?
^
ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!
But why???? You can't so no and have no reasoning to back it up!
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