Pros and cons of Franz Joseph's plans

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by TIN_MAN, Feb 7, 2009.

  1. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Lest we forget, here's deck five , pretty much the same as FJ had it, except, if you look at the port and starboard innermost ring of cabins you'll see my best guess as to how to fit in the 'VIP/guest quarters' that we saw in "Charkie X" and "Conscience of the King". These are the only cabins on the ship that have the peculiar relationship of bathroom to living space that was the key to integrating this set. The only minor discrepancy is, that in the sets, the 'back' door evidently leeds to a bedroom whereas in my version it leads to a bathroom, but we only see beyond the door for a second, and I figure the main set is the most important element.

    http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv73/tin_man_2009/Picture050.jpg

    And here's some pics from trekcore so you can see where Im coming from...

    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x02/charliex242.jpg

    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x13/conscienceoftheking175.jpg

    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x13/conscienceoftheking188.jpg

    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x13/conscienceoftheking196.jpg

    This last one shows the 'other wall' which is just the same wall w/ recessed bookshelf (and different knick-knacks), implying that there are two such walls in this type of cabin?
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
  2. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    Ah, yes, the reuse of the remains of Pike's quarters. Nicely done, integrating that.
     
  3. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks again, I've often wondered if this set was supposed to be an updated version of the pilot cabin, any thoughts?
     
  4. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    I've often wondered about that myself. I'm not sure. I could see that being the case... but then trying to figure out why Kirk would be 'downgraded' is difficult.
     
  5. BrookeStephen

    BrookeStephen Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    So do you want to build your new ship in Virtual Reality Modeling Language?
     
  6. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^^ Thanks, but nah, I'll stick w/ old school plans. Besides, you see how much trouble I had figuring out Photobucket, so do you really think I'm ready to tackle something like you're doing? I'll be content if I inspire you to tweak a wall or a consol here or there, in your VRML 'E'. So, in that regard, have you seen anything you can use?
     
  7. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Here's my deck six WIP, basically I just added the 'Emergency Manual Monitor' overlooking engineering, pretty much the way we saw it throughout the series, but off to the side, I also did a variant version similar to what we saw in "The Immunity Syndrome" except I reversed the 'auxiliary control' style table/console used in that ep. as I think this way, it has better feng shui with FJ's round energy converter thingy? But this was a one off in this ep. in this regard anyway, and is probably best ignored? Well, that's about it, the only other departure from FJ's version is that I moved his forward P/S lounges back one space to better match up w/ the corrosponding lounge below, so the window/ports mach up as seen from the outside. I think this places them closer to what we saw onscreen as well, but I'm not sure? See what you think?
    http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv73/tin_man_2009/Picture057-1.jpg

    and the obligatory trekcore pics
    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x08/TOS_2x12_IMudd0033-Trekpulse.jpg
    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x08/TOS_2x12_IMudd0034-Trekpulse.jpg
    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/2x18/immunitysyndrome0205.jpg

    Oh, almost forgot. FJ had some 'left over' space in the turboshafts in three places around, so I Made use of them to stack up spare T/L's for emergancies or high traffic times like shift changes and such?
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  8. BrookeStephen

    BrookeStephen Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    That's totally undeserved!

    Besides - I gave you my best tutorial and you didn't even seem to notice all my efforts on your behalf!

    I am so hurt!! :(

    And, I suspect it was you rebuilding the Enterprise... it was the Phaser Control room at the bottom of the saucer... I'm pretty sure it was you.

    And just when I thought I had that deck nailed down... SHEESH!
     
  9. yotsuya

    yotsuya Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I'm a little late in finding this thread. I skimmed the previous 16 pages to see what has been discussed.

    I have two original sets of the FJ plans and Tech manual. The one set is well worn, the other is in good shape.

    The way I look at the FJ plans in the context of of canon is that the plans are of Constitution, and any differences between the plans and the sets are the class variations. In retrospect, I disagree with the location of main engineering, but otherwise look at FJ's plans as what 1700 looked like at the time of the series, not 1701. If you include these plans, we have a total of 3 variants of the Constitution class that we can look at. We have the 1701 (shown by 2 models, primarily the 11 footer), we have 1071 (Constellation) represented by the original AMT model kit, and we have the 1700 from the FJ plans. The 1071 and 1700 have some similar features, such as the shape of the elevated decks under the bridge and the edge of the saucer.

    Shaw has pointed out in another thread that the number and spacing of the decks in the FJ plans doesn't fit what we saw on screen. However, all subsequent cross sections seem based on the FJ plan deck spacing (Ent-A, Excelsior, Ent-B, Ent-C, Ent-D, Ent-E, Voyager, etc). I think Shaw's concept is much closer to what an official plan might have looked like (if they had been done by Jeffries). But I am very nostalgic about the FJ plans and Technical Manual as they were the first thing of Trek I became addicted to. I had never watched the series during the time I first poured over those plans. To this day I enjoy any deckplans I come across.
     
  10. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Tin_Man,

    Sorry for not posting, and for only now catching up with your work. The problem has been "real life" issues and internet box issues (the latter have been resolved, I hope, presumably never the former will be).

    Excellent work. Now I have to find time to go over it with a fine tooth comb. Regarding Deck 7, the undercut effects its severely, as I outlined over in the Science Lab thread. The transporters are a serious issue. I can try to get back to working up a visual for that, based off the Alan Sinclair/24-deck analysis (which for this deck would have the same result). Unless you aren't interested and intend to ignore the undercut.

    My apologies for not having more at this time. Please keep going and I'll try to run faster after you.

    +++++++++

    Brooke,

    It would probably be best for you to continue your work based on FJ and, if you are interested, at some later point do revised versions based on other people's ideas, working off your finished -- perhaps 'Ikea stocked' -- VRML model. FJ is a known quantity, with some official standing (if admittedly wrong in some ways), whereas each of us outside the franchise seem to come up with different and somewhat contradictory schemes. IDIC. :devil:

    This is not a slight against anyone's efforts at plans, its just that Brooke is already working on FJ's version and it would probably be best to not switch horses in mid-stream. Not that he has said he has any such intentions.

    +++++++++

    yotsuya,

    My advice, perhaps with some bias, is that the "FJ-type" layout is not (as I once thought) 'down for the count'. FJ had few resources before him, and (at least) two contradictory semi-official 'designs' to choose from. He chose the most descriptive one in terms of making deck plans, and I have yet to see any definitive information that he chose poorly (to the contrary). And I applaud your ability to enjoy multiple viewpoints on how the ships are designed.
     
  11. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Aug 26, 2007
    I'm confused, did I cause you to take offense? Those words of mine you quoted were directed at my own bumbling stupidity, not a slight toward you or anyone else, sorry if I gave the wrong impression? Actually, I did thank you and sojourner for your help, but I still couldn't figure it out, but again, that's a reflection on me, not on your excellant tutorial(s). :) I simply meant that me and computers don't get along too well, so I'm probably the last person you'd want to try to teach?

    I suspected that you might be refering to one of my versions of the PCR, but modesty forbade me from assuming so (at least publicly:devil:). If you want, I'll post it again so we can discuss it?
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  12. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Well, that's pretty much where I'm going with my 'retrofitting' of FJ's "Achernar" sub-class, into something close to what might have been the "Bonhomme Richard" sub-class (basically, MJ's version) while Honoring (hopefully) both FJ and MJ. I too, like other artist's plans, especially Shaw's, and I agree, his are looking like the best so far? I just thought I'd doodle around, and see what I could come up with as far as a compromise between FJ and MJ, just for fun.
     
  13. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks for the input Whorfin, as always. About those transporters, If I understand what you're getting at, I think it was FJ's intention to have the xptr platform overlap w/ the underside curve of deck 7? This was his way of giving a rational reason for why the pads were up on a platform, that, and because he thought they had to contact the hull surface itself? But that's just my two quatloos worth.
     
  14. yotsuya

    yotsuya Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nov 20, 2008
    Now that I think about it, the FJ plans are the first time a Transporter Emitter was shown. While he marked the hull on the plans as transparent to energy, they are not shown on the exterior views. But when you get to Ents D & C, they are finally shown on the hull.

    And one thing to remember, the ships shown in the technical manual and some of the deck plans were used as schematics on the bridge in TMP and TSFS. It's been a while since I watched the movies, but I recall the scout/destroyer and tug showing up and the deckplans when McCoy breaks into Spock's quarters and sounds an alarm.
     
  15. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Okay, moving right along. Before continuing to the lower decks, here's the first season deck 7, which is also very much a WIP at this point.
    http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv73/tin_man_2009/Picture062.jpg

    My thoughts on this are still in a state of flux right now, particularly in regards engineering, I'm thinking of swapping FJ's port and starboard deck 6 and 7, on either side of main engineering, as this allows for part of FJ's "energy converter" to be part of the set we saw in "The Enemy Within", seen here...
    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x05/theenemywithin178.jpg

    The offices and tool shops would then be on deck 6, this also makes sense of Scotty's line from "The Naked Time", where he orders a crewman to go "UP" to his office and pull the plans for the door mechanism to main engineering (on deck 7).
    I'm still not sure about the best way to go, as to the corridor outside, with the door being essentially offset, this poses some problems, as does the undercut in the hull? I welcome any ideas in area.

    The sickbay also changed after the first seaon, such as the Doctors lab...
    And the infamous lab where Spock is blinded, the set for which, was built where McCoy's office would later be..., (I wanted to post pics but trekcore doesn't seem to want to cooperate on these images, so Ill try agin later?)

    And finally a pic of the 'hearing room' as we saw it in the 1st season...
    http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x11/themanagerie1_790.jpg
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  16. BrookeStephen

    BrookeStephen Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Hey TinMan;
    No, I was trying (unclearly) to say that you were being too hard on yourself.
    Please do post the phaser control room again. It's not that different, and with Worfin's permission, well... I wouldn't want to upset him! LOL.
    Canon IS Canon.
    Also, I thought you should know, several of your TrekCore links don't work.

    So have you seen my Cutaway view of the primary hull?
    I'm dying for feedback.
     
  17. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^^Whew, I was afraid I'd pissed you off, wouldn't want to do that!
    I'll post the phaser room again, I'll just quote myself as that's easier than doing all the gobbledy-gook over again.
    You say my links don't work? that's strange I test em all, and they worked for me. Unless you're talking about the ones I just removed, (while you were posting) for that very reason? :lol:
    As for your cutaway, that's way Kewel, looking forward to seeing more of it as it gets more detailing!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  18. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Aug 26, 2007
  19. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Well, let me explain my understanding of the situation (which is a different take on the matter), based on the various studio models and how other fans have "semi-professionally" interpreted the differences (filtered through FJ). And, which after a lot of consideration, I believe is the 'best' scheme:

    Primarily, we have three versions of the 11' model. In general, its considered that the 1st Pilot version represents the Constitution class as originally built. The 2nd Pilot version represents the Constitution class refitted to Bon Homme Richard specifications (and fans have generally assumed that the ships of that unseen class are basically identical to the WNMHGB version), finally there is the Production version, which represents the Constitution class (and also the Bon Homme Richard class) uprated to Achernar class specifications.

    However, the actual ships of the Achernar class are somewhat different in their appearance and design (being built about 20 years later), and are identical to the Franz Joseph BoGP blueprints. In terms of functionality the newly refitted (post WNMHGB) Constitution class ships are equal to the Achernar, and there was no need to modify their hulls, deflector grid arrangement, internal layout, etc. -- those things work fine, and its just a bit more cramped than the newer design). Equipment was uprated, but the ship remained largely the same, i.e., it was retrofitted. This is one way to let fans attempt to have our cake and eat it too: The TV version is different, but the BoGP doesn't get thrown out and its uniqueness is recognized. The alternative is to say that the Constitution class had several subclasses within itself (separate from the later Bon Home Richard and Achernar designs), with very significant design changes. Not cosmetic or minor changes.

    So, to me, FJ's plans are their own (retconned) ship class, and don't need to be modified. But, we can take the information we have from the show and what FJ provides and apply that to making a (fan) reconstruction of what the inside of the Constitution/Bon Homme Richard classes might be like. The structural differences (or if one prefers, defects) between FJ and the TV show now comes to the forefront, and we have to retcon FJ's plans to work inside the studio models and with the sets as built. That we appear to have some disagreement about who has the correct fan reconstruction of the ship complicates matters, but as long as the differences in the outer hull are not too severe -- and if we can figure out the right number and placement of decks -- we can make a close approximation. While I believe a reasonable solution to these differences may exist in the 11' model, I am not disinclined to accept the notion of competing ideas about the designs due to contradictory and incomplete information. To make it clear, I would rather have a multitude of designs than angry disagreement over who is "right". IDIC

    So, for a Constitution or (presumably) Bon Homme Richard deck plan, I would prefer to work in the differences from FJ (the bridge, supporting 'command pod', the undercut, the size and shape of the secondary hull, etc. And if the model 'tells me' that FJ and TMoST deck description have the number of decks wrong, I'm all for chopping them out (it hasn't, yet). And if the episodes clearly (without contradiction) 'tell me' that a room is on another deck, then if at all possible it should go there. At least that's how I would do it, that's what I would like to try to do.

    Now other than the recent twist that Warped9 has recently suggested that we include the 33" model as the original form of the Constitution class, this pretty much sums up the situation -- and this new suggestion just adds another (seemingly premature) refit cycle into the mix (which I discussed in his thread on the matter: The differences can be explained with a minimum of redesigning, if one can accept a certain amount of inaccuracy). But, for the sake of this discussion, I think we can ignore this idea.

    FJ didn't seem to know, or at least didn't put in the plans, that there was much of an undercut at all (we can say he might have known because of where he put the storage compartments on the deck, but that doesn't explain the corridors that go through the undercut (at best they would have to crawl, and I think its impossible).

    The undercut fully bisects Deck 7 into an inner circle and outer ring which are only directly connected to each other (if at all) at the interconnecting dorsal. As positioned by FJ, the Transporters are in the undercut, where it is impossible for them to exist, unless the estimates of the undercut on the studio model are grossly incorrect. I believe I have correctly repositioned the Transporter rooms so they are now out of the undercut, and the results are not pretty (see graphic below -- just a demonstration, not a final design). As one can see in my supplied diagram, a great deal of work and thought are going to have to occur to keep the Transporters on Deck 7. The security area, however, may have to go to another deck, as its in the undercut and there is little room to relocate it unless we replace crew quarters on the deck with it.

    [​IMG]

    In the outer ring -- if I remember it right -- you basically only have the outer most ring of quarters (and impulse engineering), the forward sensors (or whatever one wants to call them) and the outermost corridor. Access to the deck now becomes an important issue. As you can see the massive changes required weren't hashed out by me overnight, and it may take some time to present a full diagram (even in rough form).

    Being topologically challenged it would probably be helpful to someone like me to see "swaps" side-by side, kind of like the PCR set comparison. Implications might be revealed that I might otherwise miss. But if its too much work I'll figure it out eventually. Comparison to FalTorPan's reconstructions would also be of great benefit. What may happen is that an earlier, smaller version of the set works and a later, larger version doesn't, which points us to several possibilities.

    Well, at the disk longitudinal centerline, the undercut (presumably) doesn't exist for the width of the top of the Interconnecting Dorsal. In other words, if the ID is attached to the saucer, it would be logical to continue saucer decks at the ID into the ID. But some people think, for good reason, that the ID separates on the saucer end, not the secondary hull end, and if so perhaps the disconnect area is "messier" in design than we would like. In either case, an argument can be made that the Primary Hull and ID overlap creates a continuation of Deck 7 through the undercut. More problematic is the circular corridor outside of the set (I don't think there will be one, due to the undercut), and the fact that the lateral sides of the impulse engineering set are presumably going to be impacted by the undercut (i.e. to the sides of the "floor" area of the set). The FJ Deck 6 part will be fine, but anything to the side on Deck 7 of impulse engineering will have to deal with the undercut, I believe. On the plus side, we now know why some people are entering Engineering from the upper deck side access points! :devil:

    A possibility I have been considering is making the actual impulse engine area shorter and moving the engineering set aft somewhat to make room for the corridor. I don't like this idea, and am fairly unsure if it will work, but it is an alternative to the serious problems imposed by the undercut. Making space for the circular corridor puts the set back into continuity and solves access problems at the same time, so drastic measures must at least be considered. After that we may try Tardis technology, after all they seemed to be using it in TMP's engineering set! :devil:

    I'm not sure that they were always meant to be one lab. We could argue ourselves into the ground on that one. If there is a structural difference, definitely yes, if not its a "maybe" on not being the same room.

    Have you checked if the hearing rooms resemble the Captain's Office area? I'm not sure if its marked on FJ's version of the plans.

    Apologies for the long windedness, I must be in the wrong thread!

    +++++++++

    yotsuya,

    I hadn't looked at them that way before, and just a few weeks ago they were bothering me, because some of the areas clearly can't be used for windows in FJ's plans because there is essentially no, or very difficult access, to these "transparent" areas. So I was thinking of them as sensors in his mind, but your suggestion is at least as good or better. But I don't think they are positioned directly adjacent to the transporters... will have to check that out at home. Thanks for the input!

    +++++++++

    Is this the part where I say something about my squirrelly wrath? :devil:

    TrekCore worked fine for me yesterday, no problems today, with TM's links. May be having intermittent problems?

    Sorry for the lack of feedback, I have been overwhelmed of late. Keep on VRMLing!
     
  20. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2007
    ^^Well, let's see, as far as different versions of the ship goes, I'm keeping it simple, and following the old idea that the pilot versions were the original Constitution construction contract, so named after first ship built, and the two variations we see in the pilots, of the 11 footer, do not constitute (no pun intended) a seperate sub-class. This comes with the second contruction contract, the 'Bonhomme Richard' class, featuring the upgrades we saw in the regular production run of TOS. Same for the 'Achernar' or FJ's version, which some take to be the TAS version? The Idea being that the older ships get uprated to the new spec's periodically, this accounts for why the Constitution looks like an Achernar in FJ's plans. Of course, other schemes work as well, both the 33 inch Enterprise, and the AMT/Constellation could represent further sub-classes, or just ships in some transitional stage of refiting?

    As for the undercut on the bottom of the primary hull, FJ definitely down played the undercut, but he didn't leave it out completly, you can see this in his cutaway. The 'gangways' are like a hill or arched bridge as seen from the inside, and there's certainly less headroom at the 'crest' than the rest of the decks, but I don't think one would need to crawl to get through to the other side, stoop maybe? And yes, FJ's undercut is not as wide as we see in the 11 foot model, but about the same as we see in the 33 incher. This is one of the problems in converting FJ's plans to the 11 footer's contours, you end up losing a lot of the inner ring of deck seven, this is why I was so willing to capitulate to FJ in this regard in our discussion waaay upthread, because I foresaw this problem looming on the horizon, and as you can now see, I needed some of those facilities in this area, as they were vital for my retcon.

    Regarding your repositioning of the xprtrs, if you plan to overlap them w/the undercut like FJ, then I don't think they need to be moved quite that far inward, there ought to be room for a corridor between sickbay and the end of the xprtr rooms?

    As for the captain's office, if you're talking about the little room beside his quarters (on the set as well as in the plans), then I think that's the room we see in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" where everybody gets together for a drinkin party? I'm assuming the 'dining room' we saw in "Is There In Truth No Beauty" is 'supposed to be' the same room, although here, it is a redress of the Briefing Room.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2009