Pros and cons of Franz Joseph's plans

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by TIN_MAN, Feb 7, 2009.

  1. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thought I'd start my own (first time) thread to discuss whether FJ's work is really irreconcilable with the TOS source material (not the later stuff, I know that's hopeless). Mainly interested if anyone has actually tried any more or less successful retcons?
     
  2. FalTorPan

    FalTorPan Vice Admiral Admiral

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    As an FJ aficionado, I think very highly of his work. Before criticizing its lack of full compatibility with what was seen in the TV series, it's important to keep in mind a 100% faithful translation from screen to blueprint was never the design goal.

    Carry on. :)
     
  3. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I always found the placement of engineering and the arrangement of the secondary hull's innards interesting. I think with certain rearrangements, they're fine.
     
  4. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Hey FalTorPan, love your website, been a fan for years! Just wish you'd finish your engine room articles.;) I think FJ's intent was more to present the ship as it could really have been built, rather than to slavishly adhere to every redressed set-of-the-week or every throwaway line here and there about what was on what deck? Even so, I have no problem watching TOS and appreciating MJ's set design, and at the same time looking at FJ's designs and appreciating how everything can be made to fit together in the greater structure of the ship, and it doesn't bother me that the bridge doesn't line up on the centerline.
     
  5. Bernard Guignard

    Bernard Guignard Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    For me the Blueprints read USS Constitution but Design is not a Static matter. There would have been Yard changes in the design of the ship due to engineering and design problems that solutions had to come up with. F.J. BPs don't show those changes. They would have been incorporated into the next ship design as well as other changes and upgrades to the technolgy Ultimately each ship in the Constitution class Lineage could look slightly Different on the outside and radically different on the inside. Yes modular design and standardized components would make the ships of the class similar but I still think that there would be differences.
    So for me F.J.s Blueprints are as legitimate as any one elses who wants
    to show thier intepretation. :techman:
     
  6. Klaus

    Klaus Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well my copies have holes in the corners from being pinned to wall when I was in high school :lol:, so I love them. The bridge offset made me go "hmmmm" as a kid but doesn't make me as riled as some, and though I quickly realized they didn't match all the references on the show I also quickly realized that the show wasn't consistent so it was a Catch-22. [Lost in Space had already taught me the concept of continuity glitches at an early age, so I was cool with that. :p]

    I've had mine since they came out, cover price $4.95! :D

    I agree that they're just an interpretation, like everyone else's...

    I have been a passionate Trekfan since seeing snatches of TOS' original broadcast as a young child, but the height of excess this question brings out in some folks here make these among the truest words e'er sung:

    "Just repeat to yourself 'It's just a show/I should really just relax' " :evil:
    [​IMG]
     
  7. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    I have no idea where I got it, but I have a set of the blueprints untrimmed, all together as one giant poster.
     
  8. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Forbin, you lucky guy!
     
  9. Warped9

    Warped9 Admiral Admiral

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    I still have a copy of his plans in the vinyl pouch as well as two copies of the Tech Manual. The first is an older "hardcover" version and the other is a more recent Ballantine reissue for reference.

    I keep them for nostalgia because FJ was a significant inspiration for my own forays into Treknical material even though I can easily spot how divergent and inconsistent much of what he did was with what we saw on TOS.

    My own TOS shuttlecraft project is an open tip-of-the-hat to FJ's work in terms of style and striving for a reasonable measure of credibility. In like manner I'll go on to other Trek related projects.
     
  10. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Forbin, those wouldn't happen to include copies of Gene Roddenberry's authentication signiture, would they?
    Bernard, you hit the nail on the head, the "in Universe" explanation is that no two ships are ever exactly alike, for all the reasons you mentioned, plus improvements with each sub-class from original Conie to Bonie to Achernie etc.
    But I still think that Internally, the ships of a major class would still be pretty close in specs of one another, just as the outside seems to be. That's why I'm interested in "retcon" ideas, something along the lines of McMaster, Mandel and Everhart. That is, something that respects the integrity of FJ's functional realism, but at the same time, incorporates the details of MJ's set/model elements as we actually saw them onscreen.
     
  11. Jimini

    Jimini Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    The dreadnaught, tug, scout/destroyer, and Enterprise?
    There was a short-lived (IIRC) sci-fi magazine from the late 70's whose 20nd issue had those four ships on a fold-out poster. I forget what artwork was on the other side, but there ws something. Sadly my copy is packed away somewhere and no longer in pristine condition.
     
  12. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    No, the deck plans. All the pages on one big untrimmed sheet. It's huge!
     
  13. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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  14. ancient

    ancient Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^^Oooo shiney!

    I think they're great blueprints, extremely good quality, well planned, all around awesome, especially considering the times (no computer help, little other work for reference.)

    And now a list of nitpicks:
    -rotated bridge. That's never, ever going to look right to me, and that's that.
    -engineering. Not what we saw on screen. Close, but not right. Noooooooo!
    -I think the fact that there is no real deflector machinery or warp core leaves the engine hull looking not...enginey enough.
    -The ship doesn't have the same proportions as the 11-footer, which is the version of the ship I consider closest to 'real'.
    -Window/hatch placement on the models seems to be largely ignored.

    But those are nitpicks, minor annoyances at best.
     
  15. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ancient, You do great work too, by the way. As for FJ's stuff, the lack of deflector machinery always bothered me also, but as you say the dimensions are somwhat off, especially in that area. MJ's original seems to be somewhat longer in front of the dorsal conection, so maybe there's enough room to retcon at least a little bit of machinery in there? And as for a warp core? Well, maybe in FJ's secondary hull engine room there might be space for at least a small warp core, like we saw in TAS? Which brings up another angle on all this, the comparisons between FJ's stuff and the TAS interiors, here we have a little more leeway at least, in cherry picking what we want to use and what we want to ignore.
     
  16. uniderth

    uniderth Commodore Commodore

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    I think FJ's work is a Trek classic. NOt only holding a important place in Trek history but in my life. I remember borrowing the Starfleet Technical Manual from the library and study every aspect of the drawings. One day the library lost the copy of the book and spent years looking for the book. One day I found it at the book store and had my dad switch it with the book I was going to buy(TNG technical manual). I've cherished that book ever since then. A few years ago I bought another copy of the book so I wouldn't wear out my original.

    As far as accuracy is concerned I didn't even notice it as a kid. Nowdays it's just fun to look at.

    This book has even been inspiration for my own technical manual projects I'm working on. I love FJ's work. It's amazing, takes me back to my childhood(and plans of making a real starfleet).
     
  17. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Forbin, that is great. You need a frame for those.

    Those are basically my issues/feelings too. The bridge I could go either way on. The lack of deflector and warp machinery has always bugged me. The deflector area itself isn't accurate to the model, either - the indents on the rings behind the dish don't go in far enough. Of course FJ was going for the idea that the engine machinery was almost totally in the engines, so that explains that. But there still seems to be a lack of machinery.

    So one of us should probably just take and whittle down and rearrange FJ's plans to fit within the Casmiro drawings, accurize, and see where we are.

    Boy... it may just be me, but that sounds like no fun at all.
     
  18. Vance

    Vance Vice Admiral In Memoriam

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    FJ released a handful of these as convention 'posters' within the first couple of years of the blueprint's release. If it's legitimate (sadly, a lot of illegal copies are around, though not many of the pre-cuts, for obvious reasons), then it's worth quite a bit to certain collectors.
     
  19. Forbin

    Forbin Admiral Admiral

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    ^Thanks, Vance, that mystery has been hovering around me for years. I still can't remember what con I got it at, but it's nice to know what it is.

    I have no reason NOT to think it's a legit copy.

    Anybody wanna buy it? :D
     
  20. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Capital Idea Praeter, I was hopeing someone would volunteer. :devil: I have some ideas for such a project, but my drafting skills are mediocre at best and my computer art skills are non-existant. :( However, a good place to get some ideas on what would be required in the project is "Dave's Holodeck", He has an article w/ a deck-by-deck internal/external comparison, I don't agree w/ everything he says , but its a good place to get started?