Pros and cons of Franz Joseph's plans

Discussion in 'Fan Art' started by TIN_MAN, Feb 7, 2009.

  1. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Tin_Man,

    We seem to be disagreeing on when "upgrades" should be counted as subclasses or conversions to a different class. You seem to be saying that Production 1701 does fall into this pattern, but that the Pilots do not. I say, based on the work of others, that the differences between the versions indicate upgrading Constitution to meet the specs of newer classes, or official conversion to those class (the difference in the latter being largely a matter of semantics).

    Since the Pilot I version of 1701 does not look like FJ's design, and neither does Pilot II or Production I/II, I tend to disagree. We never see on screen a ship that resembles FJ, the closest we come is the differently inaccurate Constellation, so it seems logical to me to "promote" the BoGP to the unseen Achernar class, which 1701 has been refit to somewhat resemble. The advantage of the scheme I support is that we are never shown any of FJ's other CA classes on screen (for good reason, they didn't exist yet) and consequently (other than the names FJ gives them) we know nothing about them, but by going with what I outlined we get to know what they all look like, and keep the BoGP in continuity by switching its class. To me its an elegant solution to several problems. But to each his own. :techman:

    If you're ignoring the modern reconstructions of the studio model, that's fine, but as I said: if that's the case there's not much reason to mess with FJ, he's got a design that works independently of what we saw on TV. But that's just me. But I think I understand what you are aiming for: mostly FJ, but consistent with the sets. People can adapt FJ to make whatever ship they want, I certainly don't own the design, and what I offer is friendly advice. I've seen a lot of designs down the years, and my personal experience is when you try to factor in what everyone else has done it makes for a more consistent, and therefore enjoyable, expanded universe. But I'm one of those... fellows... that likes to pretend that on some level its all real! :alienblush:

    On the other hand, I can't speak for the CC or anyone else's reconstruction of the undercut (not having looked closely at them yet, and DS is not officially 'done'), but for Alan Sinclair the question is whether there really is going to be room for someone to crawl? It would be better used for liquid storage, such as all that slush deutrium the impulse engines need, in that area, IMHO. There is no space (that I can see), whatsoever, for the transporter room as positioned by FJ, once we shoehorn the BOGP into AS's reconstruction. So, yes, to me its a major issue. See my human interface 24-Deck reconstruction for the severity of the undercut [yellow lines] ( http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv118/whorfin777/CS-AlanSinclair-24Deck-SB.jpg ) , which essentially reinforces the FJ-AS comparison ( http://i675.photobucket.com/albums/vv118/whorfin777/CS-FJ-AlanSinclair-StdArticulation.jpg ), and here is my current rough estimate of what the undercut makes inaccessible, per Alan Sinclair:

    [BTW, I'm having problems with the links in this post going to a different URL than what shows up in the text of the post, and what I am inserting, repeatedly). Either this is some sort of strange cache error with my browser, or there is a problem with the BBS code. Just make sure you are going to a URL that matches the text in the post. Apologies for any inconvenience.]

    [​IMG]

    No, in the plans, at least as labeled on the FASA versions (I haven't checked the harder to read FJ), Deck 7 has an office for the Captain near the transporter room and chapel (starboard side). Normally, this is one place I would expect disciplinary action to occur, and presumably this is where Rand spends much of her time. But looking at it, I think its smaller, at least until the revisions I'm proposing all get worked out. I think (maybe) all the department heads have a labeled office somewhere in the plans, separate from their quarters, at least in the FASA version of the plans. Which is the way it should be: can't be having underlings being disciplined in one's bedroom now, can we? :vulcan:
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2009
  2. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    ^^ Not at all, I think we're saying the same thing, mostly, but in different ways? I agree, The pilot versions most certainly do fall in to the pattern, they're the first in the series, the original "Constitution Class".

    The "Achernar Class" is indeed, I agree, a later development in both our real world time line and in Trek's fictional time line, which we assume the other earlier classes have been refit to match, somewhat. And the "Achernar Class" IS FJ's BoJP's, It's just the Connie (1700) refitted to those (Achernar) spec's.

    As for CC's or AS's studio model plans vs FJ, again, I agree, the 11 ft. model and TBoGP's are two different colored horses, and they're distinctly different in various important ways. As I said, the undercut of the 11 ft. model is different from FJ's version. I haven't measured it closely, but my best guesstimate is that there might be room for the xprtrs in an FJ configuration, while leaving room for a corridor around sickbay, but then again, if you're not beholding to FJ, and your goal is better fit with onscreen evidence, then there's no reason to worry about it anyway, as the sickbay should be on deck five and the xprtrs could be anywhere? As I said upthread, I'm all about compromise, I don't have a burning desire to see any one particular version of the big 'E' be vindicated as the one and only "real" or "true" design. For me, the only value in exact measurements of the studio models, is for documentation purposes, that is, treating them as exactly what they are, historic and science fiction, memorabilia!

    As for the Capt's office, yes the CSC is near the Chapel, but it's quite a bit smaller than the Briefing room. I also moved the Exec's office back there (in the otherwise empty GUR) this keeps all the offices together, which is handy I suppose? And yes, I agree Kirk probably had many oppurtunities to discipline Rand (or vice versa?) in there! :lol:
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2009
  3. Bernard Guignard

    Bernard Guignard Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I've been reading this with great interest and enjoying the Illustrations that go along with them and as a former Drafts person I need to ask this what would be your best guess estimate as to the thickness of the outer shell
    of the Enterprise I know that in some pictures we see what seems to be
    a 1 foot thick. Has any one factored that into the construction plans?
    Keep up the great work by the way. :techman::techman::bolian:
     
  4. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Thanks a bunch, glad you enjoy!
    As for the thickness of the hulls, I never gave it a lot of thought, but a foot or foot 1/2 sounds about right? Now, whether that means the hulls are solid tri-titanium, or what have you, is a different matter. There's probably an outer and inner layer sandwiching insulating material and what not? As for the hull plating itself, I like to think it uses the 'plywood principle' with overlaying 'spun' material with the 'grain' going in alternate directions for maximum strengh? This might explain the "aztec" pattern seen in later (unpainted?) hulls.
     
  5. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Bernard, thank you for the compliments, and I would like to know the answer to that question too. Not knowing is one reason why everything I do in regards to this is hypothetical/conjectural/guess-work. The current drawings are largely based off FJ line thicknesses, and whether that's accurate or not is something to be argued. We have some idea of the thickness of ordinary walls in TOS from "Charlie X". I think there are relatively few times in Trek we see destroyed outer hulls from a perspective we can analyze. Generations and Nemesis are the only examples I can think of off the top of my head. And I am no expert at estimating thicknesses based off a screen cap of a damaged wall. If anyone has an educated opinion on the subject, now is a good time to stand up.

    +++++++++
    Tin_Man,

    I'm too short on time today to say anything in detail, so I'll address your post at the next opportunity. And I apologize if my efforts at finding parsimonious solutions to all these Treknological problems sounds too insistent. This particular idea I'm espousing is perhaps most explored in "Ships of the Star Fleet Volume One" by Calon Riel, but I am not sure if he originated it or not. Perhaps someone better informed than me can explore the history of the scheme.
     
  6. BrookeStephen

    BrookeStephen Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Funny you should ask...

    I've factored in a hull thickness of 0.5metres (1.6feet) and a floor thickness of 0.11metres in all the TOS Enterprise that I've built sofar in Virtual Reality Modeling Language (VRML).

    I've also partitioned off the engineering sections in 0.5metre walls so the cabins on either side of engineering are as safe from problems in engineering as they are from external assault.

    Funny also that now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps the floor in the Shuttle Bay should also be 0.5metres thick - right now it's only 0.11metres thick - probably makes sense to make that change!
     
  7. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Whorfin, Cool, I just dug out my copy of SoSF Vol.I, from the bowels of my library (ouch), I'll re-read it tonight! My main source has been the "Federation Referance Series", but both are based on the same sources, I think, but it's been a long time since I've actually re-read either of the above, so we'll see?
     
  8. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I knew you'd come through for us BrookeStephen, Thanks for the input. Now, about that Phaser Room...
     
  9. Mysterion

    Mysterion Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well they did increase the crew from 203 to 430. I imagine a lot of space was reduced for a lot of folks, including the CO's quarters.
     
  10. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    Wasn't Pike's cabin almost circular, perhaps placing it below the pilot briefing room? Maybe it was simply lost to the bridge dome refit, and the resemblance in the other quarters was mere coincidence.
     
  11. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Here's a thought, since we saw a little of the 'back wall' in "The Conscience of the King" and it also had a recessed bookshelf, maybe that side of the cabin looked like Pikes quarters, and we could then combine the two sets into one large circular or semi-circular cabin? Still doesn't explain why Kirk's not using it though? But it would make for a really nice VIP cabin?
     
  12. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    I would still favor it being a shared stylistic component, rather than the same room, and just let the quarters go as part of the A-B-C deck refit.
     
  13. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yeah, I tend to agree.

    Anywho, here's my deck 9 and 10 WIP, I just thought I'd try to make the window/portals match up some way? Basically I just made 'cozy' little elevated "personal recreation" rooms that don't attain full deck hieght, of course, but hey, One works with what one has? These provide a nice view of open space, or the planet of the week, or whatever.

    On deck 9, I also included the "flush vents" seen from the outside, but I'm not sure yet what exactly it is that they flush? for now, Im guessing it has something to do with the raw materials storage. And I'm also toying around w/including the FASA details in this area.
    http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv73/tin_man_2009/Picture053.jpg

    On deck 10, I added the Port and Starboard cargo door/airlocks (yellow decal on outside) w/ corrosponding control room, and some more "PR" rooms. As you can see, I'm still working on this deck.
    http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv73/tin_man_2009/Picture054.jpg

    Let me know what you think.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2009
  14. BrookeStephen

    BrookeStephen Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Just for the heck of it,
    I should also say that the wall height I've been using is 2.445metres, so that plus the floor thickness of 0.11metres gives 2.555metres as the "deck" height (8.36feet).

    If you want to convert, divide metres by 0.0254 to get inches.

    I got all these numbers off the FJ deck plans, taking the largest measurement I could make on the plan, then dividing by the number of decks I'd measured across.

    I also decided on a default of 0.02metres (about 3/4inches) as the thickness of walls throughout most of the ship.

    Aside from the 0.5metre thickness of the walls around Engineering and the ship's hull, I found the "Brandy" wall in Sick Bay is thicker than usual - I set that by eye, watching episodes, at around 0.3metres or almost 1foot. It's thick, and it has a comm station attached inside the doorjam. Go figure!
     
  15. BrookeStephen

    BrookeStephen Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Hey TinMan
    Yup - I can see the little elevated "personal recreation" rooms that don't attain full deck height, but the problem is that it's only about 1foot high.

    If there's anything in that outer ring of storage bins, it's got to contend with a triangular wall that tapers UP towards the outside... I hope you didn't miss this slope in your analysis... in 2 dimensions, it's easy to mis-interpret.

    Here's a pic of the deck the way I built it in VRML:
    [​IMG]
    Click to get the big picture, so to speak.

    Hopefully you can see the way the external wall for that deck slopes, so unless you're about the size of a tribble, then the observation portal, or any other stuff you want to put in that ring of bins, will not be very comfortable!

    I guess the external windows, since they appear on the models to originate on this deck, are simply painted on according to FJ's deck plans.

    Sorry!
     
  16. BrookeStephen

    BrookeStephen Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Hey TinMan;
    I believe the "flush" vents may refer to waste heat.

    I can imagine that the shields will absorb a maximum amount of assaulting energy and have to then dump that energy into space.

    I can only imagine what energies are created in the phaser and/or torpedo systems and how it might have to be managed to remain below a certain tolerance level, during a fight.

    And I believe it's only Smugglers who dump their cargo (at the first sign of an Imperial Cruiser!)
    LOL
     
  17. Whorfin

    Whorfin Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Brooke,

    Have you checked out the wall in "Charlie X" that gets dissolved after they turn on the force field units? I think one has to look on a set-by-set basis, but the implication might be that walls are considerably thicker, perhaps a foot, and largely consist of various small conduits. There's some discussion in my Long Winded thread regarding my estimates of FJ's deck thickness, if you can't find it I'll track it down. I would guess 0.33m minimum for the outer hull, and looking at "The Mark of Gideon's" windows may be the best indicators. I'm pretty sure that other people have made estimates. Dave Shaw has worked on this some, but he's not likely to reply to my questions. Someone here should known more, but perhaps they are not reading this thread?

    +++++++++

    Tin_Man,

    Here is something to chew on. I believe it illustrates a number of things:

    1. MJ's plans are not always consistent with themselves or the 11' model.
    2. Many of FJ's "mistakes" are derived from MJ's own published, "official" work.
    3. Either the 11' model wasn't supposed to have such a deep undercut or MJ changed his mind about its desirability later.
    4. Its unwise to read TMoST selectively.
    5. Unless Alan Sinclair is wrong, there isn't room for very much of anything in the undercut.

    [​IMG]

    I'm not sure where the undercut went on the MJ 1967 comparison, but the other diagrams illustrate its position.

    Pike's old quarters had windows, I believe (or so I remember a discussion), so it would need to go somewhere appropriate. Perhaps someone else can comment. While I think "The Cage" had a briefing room below the bridge -- and thus the reason for the overhang above the table -- I think the configuration changed after Production. If circularity is desired for Pike's quarters, FJ Deck 11 might be the best solution, but not after Production changes, obviously.
     
  18. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Oh, you know me better than that, :techman: I knew there was a slope there, my intention was to split the differance and make for enough headroom for sitting, as in a car or Minivan. Granted, I may not have sketched it out quite the right way, and you may be right, maybe there is no way to make it work? This is just a preliminary guesstimate anyhow, and thanks for the input, this is why I posted this stuff, to get constructive feedback. :)

    Here's a cutaway, excuse the messiness, this is from my original copy of FJ's BoGP's, that's why it's yellowed with age :lol: It's the only cutaway I could find to use! But you not only get a side view of my "PR/Obsevation" rooms but a good side view of the deck 11 Phaser Room, and the 'alternate' pilot Bridge module I'm thinking of going with?
    http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv73/tin_man_2009/Picture061.jpg

    I like your idea about the 'flush' vents being for excess heat, I think I'll run with that, if you don't mind?

    --------------------------

    Whorfin, I think the actual walls/bulkheads/whatever, that the pocket doors slide into, are probably about the the same as the walls in our homes/apartments, that is, 1/2 a foot on average? The 'thicker' walls we see in the ship, such as the "CharlieX" example, are a seperate 'paneling' (for lack of a better word) that are at most an inch or two thick, with maybe 2 feet of space between the panels and the walls? These hide all the piping and wiring etc. and provide maintainance tech's enough room to do their thing, or, these panels may 'slide out' like file cabinets, which is what I think we see "In A Mirror Darkly" in the Defiant?

    As for Pike's quarters, I toyed with the Idea of using the deck 2 "guest quarters" as a possible place for this cabin, in one my deck 2 WIP, complete w/windows.

    Oh, and the cutaway WIP above also gives a good look at FJ's undercut.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
  19. BrookeStephen

    BrookeStephen Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Personally, IMHO, I believe the undercut is inappropriate.
    I could argue that it may be most likely a mistake.
    In fact I would like to explore ways around it, in my own VRML model.

    What do you think about that?
     
  20. Praetor

    Praetor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
    I think most of it can be attributed to the differences in the plans Jefferies originally drew, as in what the ship wanted to look like, versus what the actual models looked like. Unless I'm mistaken, I think the undercut is less prominent on the smaller model.

    So if you accept that the 11-footer portrayed the ship for the majority of the series and had an undercut that deep, then it certainly 'really' is there.