Pros and cons of Franz Joseph's plans

[Captain Robert April]

Yeah, I figured I was missing something obvious, as usual. But hey, how do we know there isn't a phaser room in the aft of the secondary hull somewhere, called, appropriately enough, the 'Aft Phaser Room'?

Well, since I am including the aft weapons that were shown in "In A Mirror, Darkly", an aft fire control room would be appropriate. Probably somewhere near the hangar deck control room.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Not enough room on Deck 11 for the forward phaser room. Deck 10 is pretty tight, too.

Move it up to Deck 9, though....

So, I guess, judging from the pics you posted later, this assesment above was based on you're own plans with all the hardware on deck 10 and 11?

P.S. I'm going to show my stupidity here, and ask, why can't I get my pics on Photobucket to show up here? I keep typing in the complete URL (I think?) but it only takes me to the Photobucket site, not to my specific images?!

 

[Captain Robert April]

Not enough room on Deck 11 for the forward phaser room. Deck 10 is pretty tight, too.

Move it up to Deck 9, though....

So, I guess, judging from the pics you posted later, this assesment above was based on you're own plans with all the hardware on deck 10 and 11?

Well, yeah. FJ's plans aren't even close to the actual shape of the ship, and the whole point, of my project at least, is to fit all this stuff into the ship we saw.

 

[Whorfin]

Tin_Man,

I think you can keep more of FJ than people generally think, you just have to make some changes. The 24 deck reconstruction over in my thread is going to be the closest -- unless I'm walking in someone else's foot prints on this one. So, if you want an FJ based ship, that matches the current understanding of the external characteristics of the 11' model, that would be my suggested place to start.

Using the FASA version of the blueprints you can work out a pixel to foot to meter to FASA square conversion that makes measuring a lot easier. I'm not sure all of Cygnus' scans from a given set of blueprints are the same resolution, so I would have to check that before I could come up with something similar for his FJ plans. I did piece together all the parts of Deck 7 from FASA, and there are some minor rotational issues with his scans (minor compared to what I would manage on my own). In addition to some rotation issues I'm beginning to wonder if the original draftsman didn't make some minor mistakes involving the walls of some storage compartments, but I digress.

But there are obviously problems. Over in the labs thread in Tech (as you know) I discussed what gets 'whacked' due to the undercut. The circular hallway to impulse engineering on Deck 7 may be more of an issue than I originally thought, though due to the dorsal attachment in that area there should be room for an entranceway (there should be no undercut there). It needs to be worked out.

P.S. I'm going to show my stupidity here, and ask, why can't I get my pics on Photobucket to show up here? I keep typing in the complete URL (I think?) but it only takes me to the Photobucket site, not to my specific images?!

You can PM me the URL and I'll see if I can make heads or tales out of it. If you have scripting turned off that might be preventing the pages from working correctly, but we should check the syntax of the URL before you start disabling web security features on your computer.

+++++++++
​

CRA,

Well, yeah. FJ's plans aren't even close to the actual shape of the ship, and the whole point, of my project at least, is to fit all this stuff into the ship we saw.

From my perspective its more an issue of FJ's version of MJ's mid-production version of the ship that's not very accurate. But its not a popular sentiment. I see too many of the "flaws" that FJ gets blamed for trailing back to (most likely) MJ via TMoST. That's my take on it by not reading TMoST selectively.

 

[Praetor]

I'd water the 'real appearance' argument even more to say that it's a simpler argument between the way Jefferies drew the plans and the way the models were built.

It's possible that in Jefferies mind, the ship looked like it was supposed to in his construction plans, and that could be why his subsequent drawings seem to reflect a ship that differs from either of the models. I'd argue that FJ too a similar approach in deciding to show what the ship 'really' looked like as opposed to what either of the models looked like.

How close do the views of the 'real' Enterprise as viewed by MJ and FJ synchronize? That might be the tricky question.

 

[TIN_MAN]

^^Thanks Whorfin. I'm going to try to figure out the photobucket thing on my own first, best way to learn, I guess? I won't PM you unless I give up in dispair.
As for this whole FJ accuracy thing, I guess I'm just not as nitpicky about exact contours, demensions and shapes to the nth degree as most everyone else seems to be? Believe me, I understand , I used to be the same way, but I guess I've mellowed in my old age, now I'm all about comprimise. Sure, it can be fun and challanging to take the 'Thermion' aproach, and try to fit everything together exactly as we saw it on the screen, but as I've oft repeated, I don't think MJ or TPTB really intended anybody to ever do this. And when you do, sooner or later, you're gonna have to comprimise anyway, because ultimatly, that aproach presents its own set of technical problems and limitations. I bet if MJ himself had made a complete set of plans for his ship after the show folded, they would have varied in details every bit as much, if not moreso than FJ's! For me, it's enough that FJ's plans are as accurate as they are, they don't need to slavishly match minute detail for minute detail. Having said that though, I do think FJ could have gotten a little closer in matching the interior and exterior details to the show than he did, and thereby hangs the reason fo this thread. That, and to defend FJ from what I see as an incorrect notion that his work is simply so inacurate that it can't be reconciled with what we saw on TOS.

 

[Whorfin]

Praetor,

I'd argue that FJ too a similar approach in deciding to show what the ship 'really' looked like as opposed to what either of the models looked like.

How close do the views of the 'real' Enterprise as viewed by MJ and FJ synchronize? That might be the tricky question.

The second question, in terms of AS, I may have already answered depending upon your interpretation. The first question, assuming you're interested in what I have to say (I don't pretend to have all the answers), will have to wait until I've finished with Dave. Apologies for the lack of time.

 

[BrookeStephen]

Well, yeah. FJ's plans aren't even close to the actual shape of the ship, and the whole point, of my project at least, is to fit all this stuff into the ship we saw.

I'm sorry but I must take exception to this characterization!
I've had no trouble with turning FJ's plans into reality...
well only minor trouble...
but that's not the point...
FJ's plans ARE close to the actual shape of the ship.
IMHO.
FWIW.
Bite me.

 

[BrookeStephen]

P.S. I'm going to show my stupidity here, and ask, why can't I get my pics on Photobucket to show up here? I keep typing in the complete URL (I think?) but it only takes me to the Photobucket site, not to my specific images?!

Once you've loaded a pic into an album on Photobucket,
right-click on the specific thumbnail of your pic and select "Properties".
Use your cursor to 'paint' the "Address: (URL)" property and press CTRL-C
to copy this value.
Open a notepad (or any other document where you can put this in the meantime) and paste (CTRL-V).

Next, move your cursor over the specific thumbnail of your pic, and then click on the "Direct Link" html code in the little rectangle that appears just below the thumbnail.
CTRL-C will copy this - paste it on the line below where you pasted the last one (notepad) CTRL-V.

Start a Thread Reply on the BBS, and insert a pic - paste the first line you put in notepad here. Move your cursor after the pic using the arrow keys. To 'paint' the pic you just inserted, press SHIFT-LEFTARROW.

Then click on the 'insert link' icon above, and paste the second line you put in notepad here.

It's tougher to type than to do... I do this with all my photobucket pics now, and they open up when you click on the thumbnail.

Cheers!

 

[Albertese]

Well, yeah. FJ's plans aren't even close to the actual shape of the ship, and the whole point, of my project at least, is to fit all this stuff into the ship we saw.

I'm sorry but I must take exception to this characterization!
I've had no trouble with turning FJ's plans into reality...
well only minor trouble...
but that's not the point...
FJ's plans ARE close to the actual shape of the ship.
IMHO.
FWIW.
Bite me.

I like you BrookeStephen. You're all right.

 

[BrookeStephen]

I like you BrookeStephen. You're all right.

Right back-at-cha... SIR!

 

[Whorfin]

I like you BrookeStephen. You're all right.

I too appreciate the humor, after what's been going on lately I need it. Now lets hope that CRA does too or there may be a biting epidemic!

 

[TIN_MAN]

Let's see if this works?
http://i41.tinypic.com/24qinih.jpg
Aha! succes.
This is just my sketch for what some might consider an unholy union, a combo of FJ's and MJ's phaser rooms, w/ compromises, of course.

 

[sojourner]

P.S. I'm going to show my stupidity here, and ask, why can't I get my pics on Photobucket to show up here? I keep typing in the complete URL (I think?) but it only takes me to the Photobucket site, not to my specific images?!

Once you've loaded a pic into an album on Photobucket,
right-click on the specific thumbnail of your pic and select "Properties".
Use your cursor to 'paint' the "Address: (URL)" property and press CTRL-C
to copy this value.
Open a notepad (or any other document where you can put this in the meantime) and paste (CTRL-V).

Next, move your cursor over the specific thumbnail of your pic, and then click on the "Direct Link" html code in the little rectangle that appears just below the thumbnail.
CTRL-C will copy this - paste it on the line below where you pasted the last one (notepad) CTRL-V.

Start a Thread Reply on the BBS, and insert a pic - paste the first line you put in notepad here. Move your cursor after the pic using the arrow keys. To 'paint' the pic you just inserted, press SHIFT-LEFTARROW.

Then click on the 'insert link' icon above, and paste the second line you put in notepad here.

It's tougher to type than to do... I do this with all my photobucket pics now, and they open up when you click on the thumbnail.

Cheers!

Actually photobucket has an option that creates a clickable thumbnail. You just have to change your album settings so that the code shows up beneath each image, then just copy the code and paste into your post. much easier.

 

[BrookeStephen]

P.S. I'm going to show my stupidity here, and ask, why can't I get my pics on Photobucket to show up here? I keep typing in the complete URL (I think?) but it only takes me to the Photobucket site, not to my specific images?!

Once you've loaded a pic into an album on Photobucket,
right-click on the specific thumbnail of your pic and select "Properties".
Use your cursor to 'paint' the "Address: (URL)" property and press CTRL-C
to copy this value.
Open a notepad (or any other document where you can put this in the meantime) and paste (CTRL-V).

Next, move your cursor over the specific thumbnail of your pic, and then click on the "Direct Link" html code in the little rectangle that appears just below the thumbnail.
CTRL-C will copy this - paste it on the line below where you pasted the last one (notepad) CTRL-V.

Start a Thread Reply on the BBS, and insert a pic - paste the first line you put in notepad here. Move your cursor after the pic using the arrow keys. To 'paint' the pic you just inserted, press SHIFT-LEFTARROW.

Then click on the 'insert link' icon above, and paste the second line you put in notepad here.

It's tougher to type than to do... I do this with all my photobucket pics now, and they open up when you click on the thumbnail.

Cheers!

Actually photobucket has an option that creates a clickable thumbnail. You just have to change your album settings so that the code shows up beneath each image, then just copy the code and paste into your post. much easier.

...so you made me go through all those complex instructions,
when you had an easier way! Sheesh!!!
;^)

 

[TIN_MAN]

Thanks for the assist guys, but as you can see, I went with tinypic.com, screw photobucket.

 

[BrookeStephen]

Let's try this... as per sojourner...
(IMG for bulletin boards with a clickable thumbnail)



well it works, but not the same result as my method,
since my method goes directly to the full-screen pic
and sojourner's method goes directly to a pic that is
only slightly larger than the thumbnail,
and not the full-sized pic.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Well, yeah. FJ's plans aren't even close to the actual shape of the ship, and the whole point, of my project at least, is to fit all this stuff into the ship we saw.

I'm sorry but I must take exception to this characterization!
I've had no trouble with turning FJ's plans into reality...
well only minor trouble...
but that's not the point...
FJ's plans ARE close to the actual shape of the ship.
IMHO.
FWIW.
Bite me.

A Kitty Hawk class aircraft carrier can be described as being "close" to the shape of a Nimitz class carrier. For that matter, the USS Nimitz can be described as "close" to the Nimitz class USS Ronald Reagan.

Doesn't make them the same. In fact, there are considerable differences between all of the above examples.

Any resemblence between FJ's plans and any ship seen on TOS is purely coincidental.

 

[BrookeStephen]

Doesn't make them the same. In fact, there are considerable differences between all of the above examples.

Any resemblence between FJ's plans and any ship seen on TOS is purely coincidental.

Well, now the rules of engagement apply....
You used bold text - thems fightin woids!

One is designed for TV and
the other is for MECHANICAL ENGINEERING purposes...
can you tell which one is which?

I'll give you a hint:
- the TV designs are so we won't get board watching
their show on TV and change the channel, forgetting
to change it back once the commercials finish...

- TV designs are made so you can see everything germain
in a single camera shot...

- TV designs use a kaleidoscope of colours to hide the
fact that they're re-tasking a set you saw five minutes ago
in another scene...

- TV designs use shapes so that technical scenes look
complex and technical areas look like busy places...

NONE of which applies to good engineering practices.
But I've got to say, as someone who has spent several years
trying to synchronize the FJ deckplans into a cohesive package,
that I've found the ship more like the TV ship than not.

There are places like Sick Bay - the room beside the Brandy cupboard
where all the bio-beds are - that are even a different shape than
in the FJ plans, but it makes sense that it would be different...
it was easier to fit the whole scene into a single shot
and it was easier to light the scene...

You gotta eventually see that you can't really expect to reconcile
the TV ship with FJ's ship in the way and to the extent
that you seem to need to reconcile them...

I've already made the statement on here somewhere that
the best replica of the inside of the ship is the film set itself.
If you want a perfect match to the show,
build yourself a replica of the set... then it's perfect.

Ya know I saw something about the deck 10/11 fwd phaser
room that didn't look too crazy for a modification...
maybe I could incorporate that in my model (without having
a coronary)

Sorry Dude!
I don't mean to be negative, just negatively encouraging.
LOL

 

[BrookeStephen]

I forgot some points... got to thinking about them later...

The Transporter room ceiling is too high on the film set.
Nobody worried about the height of this room matching the corridor
outside the room.

It should make sense that every deck should have the same ceiling height.
Simply because humans are pretty much a certain average size.
This was the 60's and there were no tall aliens yet... LOL can't believe I said that.

The corridors have no ceilings - so they could be lit from above...
that's why there's a red stripe along the walls and the red cross-braces
strung across the corridors - so you don't see the lights lighting the scene
and you don't see that there is no ceiling...

Speaking of deck height - have you noticed that the engineering film set
consists of two decks of different heights? Take a look at the height of the
steps to go up to deck 7, then take a look at the height of deck 7.

This totally screwed me up - trying to make visual sense with the FJ model.

I think you may have read what I wrote about
the fwd port and stb window (porthole) clusters that don't have enough
vertical separation and are too vertically large on the models
considering they're on two different decks...

There are lots of inconsistencies both ways -
that make sense in the FJ plans
or in the film set and models.
But overall, it has been my experience, while building the whole ship,
that they're pretty similar where it counts.