Plot hole city: Part 3!

[Saquist]

This thread makes me like JJ Abrams and Co more and more.

The two previous threads in this "series" were closed because people kept getting too personal, and you had to go there.

That'll earn you a warning for trolling; comments to PM.

Harsh.
Comment seemed mild compared to what you've objected to before or maybe it's just over my head.

 

[Guartho]

So much for the whole "needs of the many" thing...

I didn't read the scenario as Spock intending Vulcan's destruction to save his own skin or even considering it a possibility. It's a horrid unintended consequence that will haunt him for the rest of his life. It also may serve as his motivation for not seeking to directly interfere for the rest of the movie. I like that much better than "I just thought you two could and should handle it."

 

[Pauln6]

Exactly. Spock wouldn't be trying to save his own skin at the expense of Vulcan, he'd simply be of the view that he can't help stop Nero while he's a prisoner. Any subsequent consequences would be unintended but would be his fault indirectly.

However, such a message would run very strongly against the message of this movie which was, unless I'm much mistaken: AMERICA, F**K, YEAH! A worthy message in its own right. It's fine not to follow orders as long as the outcome is all right... for you at least. It's ok if people die, as long as they aren't Ameri... humans.

 

[DrBashir]

I keep going back to Pike's "Humanitarian armada". I'm more convinced that Pike's concern was having aliens in positions of power. He knew that Kirk was a hothead that he could count on to get Spock out of the somehow. That's why he made him first office. He couldn't jump him past Spock to captain at that point beu he could give hime the power to take command from Spock when he needed to. Spock is shown as weak and indecisive even though he's the smartest one in the room. Even his girfriend gives him grief over her temporary assignment on a rescue mission and he doesn't simply put her in her place and tell her to do her duty, he changes his mind and lets a cadet make decisions for him.

"And while you were well aware that I'm qualified and desire to serve on the USS Enterprise, I'm assigned to the Farragut?


It was an attempt to avoid the appearance of favoritism.


No. I'm assigned to the Enterprise.


- Yes, I believe you are.
- Thank you."

She was never officially assigned to the Enterprise, she just wanted to be and Spock totally caved to her.

So, who got transferred off the Enterprise and to the Farragut and from there to their death because Spock couldn't say no to his girlfriend?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

No. I'm assigned to the Enterprise.


- Yes, I believe you are.
- Thank you."

She was never officially assigned to the Enterprise, she just wanted to be and Spock totally caved to her.

So, who got transferred off the Enterprise and to the Farragut and from there to their death because Spock couldn't say no to his girlfriend?

You're portraying a twisted version of how I read this scene.

My take was that she really was qualified to be on the Enterprise. In fact, she ended up proving it by being more qualified than more senior officers already serving aboard Enterprise. Spock was just afraid to acknowledge it for fear he would seem to be playing favorites.

And please, Spock didn't kill any officer by assigning them to the Farragut. The Enterprise would have been just as dead as all the other ships had it not had some relation to something that happened in an alternate future. None of that was Spock's fault or responsibility.

 

[DrBashir]

Someone who would have lived is now dead because Uhura had a sense of entitlement. If she wasn't qualified to be on the ship, any ship, she wouldn't be there. Neither would anybody else. She wanted the Enterprise and felt that her feelings should count towards what ship she was assigned to. It doesn't work that way most of the time. Besides, they were still at teh academey. It's not like they were going to be assigned to it full time. It was an emergency call. It's like she had a hissy fit because she didn't get to ride in the front seat of the ambulance. It made Uhura look like she has a sense of entitlement and made Spock look weak.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Someone who would have lived is now dead because Uhura had a sense of entitlement.

Wrong. Someone is dead because Nero killed them.

 

[DrBashir]

Who should have been Uhura but instead is someone else. You are going on a rescue mission. This is not the time to get your knickers all in a twist over who sits where. The thought should be on reponding to the mergency and making sure you're ready to do your part. Not making sure you're in the shiny new car with your boyfriend.

 

[FarStrider]

Who should have been Uhura but instead is someone else. You are going on a rescue mission. This is not the time to get your knickers all in a twist over who sits where. The thought should be on reponding to the mergency and making sure you're ready to do your part. Not making sure you're in the shiny new car with your boyfriend.

You are assuming that someone was moved to the Farragut. but we don't know that. What we do know is that Star Fleet is that because none of those ships had full crews, Star Fleet is staffing them with cadets. . . it's probable that not every position is going to be filled. . .

and Uhura (who, as Spock says, is "unmatched in xenolinguistics") had earned her place on the Enterprise. . . hell, even Kirk knew that she was supposed to be there, since he asked the computer for her location. . . it's obvious that she knew what her assignment was supposed to be, and had a right to know why it was changed. . . it's HER career, what she was training for for years. . .when was she supposed to ask about it? I guess according to you, it's not ok to stand up for what you've earned, huh? Just follow orders, even if they may be wrong or detrimental to you. . .


~FS

 

[Pauln6]

Except that these were not permanent assignments; this was a quick roster drawn up as a one off part of a cadet cruise. Starfleet Command would have a personnel department to consider her proper application for permanent assignment so she could have put in for a proper position later and let somebody other than her boyfriend assess her qualifications objectively. Instead she uses emotional blackmail on a superior officer. On the other hand, all Spock had to do was ask Pike to approve her posting on the grounds that he felt she was qualified but wished to avoid signs of favouritism. At a time of emergency, Pike had other things to worry about so this is probably why he didn't.

There is no suggestion that she was bumped for anybody else though. Enterprise got an extra officer, someone else got one less.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Anybody is free to whine; this is one aspect of the film that isn't going to bother me.

There is no suggestion that she was bumped for anybody else though. Enterprise got an extra officer, someone else got one less.

Quite.

 

[JarodRussell]

The question there is how Kirk knew Uhura was aboard the Enterprise, and what he would have done had she not been aboard.

The characters in this movie are extremely lucky, aren't they? The Enterprise is only saved because Sulu messes up. Kirk can only convice Pike/Spock because Uhura happens to be aboard. Kirk can only return to the Enterprise because he happens to find Old Spock (double luck, Spock also saves him from a monster) and happens to find the only guy in the universe who can beam him on a ship travelling at warp.

 

[DrBashir]

So the Farragut is short an officer who might have made the difference? We know that every other ship had to be destroyed in order for the Enterprise to be the only ship that can save the day (as always) it's just a really dumb way of getting Uhura on the ship. If she had just been assigned there in the first place there wouldn't be any deal but it makes her look petty and Spock look weak.

Kirk beats Spock's simulation, Uhura gets her way due to the fact the she's Spock's girlfriend, Spock cannot save his mother, Spock loses control and allows Kirk to take control of the ship, Spock isn't offered a place on the Enterprise even after deciding not to leave Starfleet but instead has to ask as Kirk was shipping out without a first officer. The character of Spock came across as really weak.

 

[Set Harth]

It's ok if people die, as long as they aren't Ameri... humans.

It wasn't "ok" that the Vulcans died.

It was ok that Nero died, because he was the planet-destroying bad guy.

This film is no different from many films in this respect.

 

[DrBashir]

If they really wanted to make the New Trek stand out from the other series, have Nero succeed at taking out Earth first and have Kirk save Vulcan. No more "Earth is in danger" stories. Make the humans the minority.

Taking out Vulcan was quick and easy. Most of the audience wouldn't know anything about it other than it's Spock's planet. It's about as impoprtant in the new reality as Alderaan was in the original Star Wars, an easy target.

 

[Gojira]

So the Farragut is short an officer who might have made the difference? We know that every other ship had to be destroyed in order for the Enterprise to be the only ship that can save the day (as always) it's just a really dumb way of getting Uhura on the ship. If she had just been assigned there in the first place there wouldn't be any deal but it makes her look petty and Spock look weak.

Kirk beats Spock's simulation, Uhura gets her way due to the fact the she's Spock's girlfriend, Spock cannot save his mother, Spock loses control and allows Kirk to take control of the ship, Spock isn't offered a place on the Enterprise even after deciding not to leave Starfleet but instead has to ask as Kirk was shipping out without a first officer. The character of Spock came across as really weak.

It took Kirk to deduce that the transmission Uhura listened to was about Nero. Without Kirk I don't think Uhura would have made the connection or made an impact on the Farragut.

 

[DrBashir]

Which is also stupid because Kirk was a newborn when that line was uttered and Pike is the one who did the paper on the Kelvin and Kirk's father. JTK didn't seem to care one way or the other. Pike is the one with the mancrush on George and he missed the reference to the lightning storm while Kirk, who was under the effects of a sedative, got it immediatly and knew that Uhura was on the ship in the first place.

Nobody really figured things out in this, they just lucked into it.

Popcorn.

 

[Gojira]

Which is also stupid because Kirk was a newborn when that line was uttered and Pike is the one who did the paper on the Kelvin and Kirk's father. JTK didn't seem to care one way or the other. Pike is the one with the mancrush on George and he missed the reference to the lightning storm while Kirk, who was under the effects of a sedative, got it immediatly and knew that Uhura was on the ship in the first place.

Nobody really figured things out in this, they just lucked into it.

Popcorn.

Didn't Kirk say he read Pike's thesis paper?

 

[DrBashir]

Nope

You know I couldn't believe it when the bartender told me who you are.


- Who am I, captain Pike?
- Your father's son.


Can I get another one?


For my dissertation I was assigned USS Kelvin. Something I admired about your dad, he didn't believe in no-win scenarios.


Sure learned his lesson.

 

[M'Sharak]

Nope

You know I couldn't believe it when the bartender told me who you are.


- Who am I, captain Pike?
- Your father's son.


Can I get another one?


For my dissertation I was assigned USS Kelvin. Something I admired about your dad, he didn't believe in no-win scenarios.


Sure learned his lesson.

You might want to fast-forward to the scene where Kirk, McCoy and Uhura have just crashed the bridge:

KIRK: It's not a rescue mission, listen, it's an attack.

SPOCK: Based on what facts?

KIRK: That same anomaly, a lightning storm in space that we saw today, also occurred on the day of my birth. Before a Romulan ship attacked the USS Kelvin. (to Pike) You know that, sir; I read your dissertation. That ship which had formidable and advanced weaponry was never seen or heard from again. The Kelvin attack to place on the edge of Klingon space and at twenty-three hundred hours last night, there was an attack. Forty-seven Klingon warbirds destroyed by a Romulan, sir. It was reported that the Romulans were in one ship, one massive ship.

PIKE: And you know of this Klingon attack how?