Plot hole city: Part 3!

[Guartho]

If Pike wasn`t supposed to remember details of his dissertation, they shouldn`t have brought it up. When he first meets Kirk he says that he`s his father`s son, that he didn`t believe in the no win scenario, etc, etc. And yet, when Krik points out that lightning storm and says that he read it in Pike`s paper, Pike gets a deer in the headlights look.

To me it makes perfect sense that Pike would remember a lot of details about George Kirk, the officer whose command decisions may have even inspired him personally, when he encounters George Kirk's son. Plus it's clear that Pike already knows a thing or two about James Kirk. He may have even planned to contact James Kirk sometime that week anyway.

Meanwhile the visual description of the anomaly the Kelvin encountered shortly before the appearance of a vast alien ship may not have been so fresh in his mind 3 years later in an, as far as he knew, completely unrelated emergency scenario.

 

[Cyke101]

Meanwhile the visual description of the anomaly the Kelvin encountered shortly before the appearance of a vast alien ship may not have been so fresh in his mind 3 years later in an, as far as he knew, completely unrelated emergency scenario.

Let's remember that this is Starfleet, too. If no one in the fleet is encountering an anomaly or vast alien ship every week, then Starfleet isn't doing their job! Encountering these things is what they do on a normal basis.

 

[Pauln6]

I don't think anyone is trying to say that the film had no flaws, but I think the overthinking going on here is a bit over the top.

This. The movie had lots of stupid little things in it. Kirk reminding Pike of something he wrote once is not one of them.

I don't disagree with the sentiment generally, I just think it's misplaced in a thread whose whole purpose IS to overthink the movie's flaws. It's meant to be a bit of a laugh.

Personally, I would have found it completely unrealistic if anybody thought the second lightning storm was related to the first without putting the pieces together like Kirk did. Crazy space sh*t happens all the time.

 

[Saquist]

Writing a paper and drawing a picture are two completely different things.

yes they are. One is a long project that takes weeks of research and preparation as well as the time actually spent creating it and the other is a child's drawing that was probably done on a dining room table in under an hour when you're six.

Pike also brought up his paper to Kirk three years earlier. He seemed to remember it quite well.

"Oh right, now I remember. I wrote a paragraph or maybe a dissertation or something."

Nice to see the use of some good reasoning. Not only those this make it evident who knows what kinda work goes into a thesis but it's also takes the comparable from a picture to referenced and thoroughly researched project as the higher expectation.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect him know not just AS much about the Kelvin but perhaps more.

 

[chardman]

I think it's far more likely that over the years Pike forgot most of what he'd written about the Kelvin Incident, and that George Kirk's brief but brave captaincy might be the sole aspect of the event that stuck with him, because it inspired him in some way. I wrote plenty of papers in school about historical events, where I now remember next to nothing about the events themselves, yet retain vivid memories about a single aspect of the event, or a particular act of one or more of the persons involved.

For some reason, I remember that there was a fire in the White House, during the presidency of Millard Fillmore, and that his wife founded the White House Library. I remember the details of these events in some detail. However these were mere bits of trivia I included, to pad out a paper about some historical event of the time which currently escapes me. I don't even remember what the paper was supposed to be about anymore, save that I included these bits of trivia about Fillmore's presidency.

I'm willing to bet that anyone who has been out of school for a decade or more have similar tales to tell.

Pike not remembering all the details from a paper he wrote decades before isn't remotely strange or inconsistent, but reflects how the world, and the human mind, actually operate.

Realism is most certainly not a "plot hole", by any definition of those words.

 

[DrBashir]

Who's saying Pike wrote the paper decades ago? He told Kirk that he could have his own ship in 8 years. Pike could be as little as 8-10 years out of the academy himself.

The story of the Kelvin was enough of an influence on Pike that he felt he should take Kirk under his wing. That shows that he felt a conenction to him. Kirk didn't even have to apply, he just showed up for the shuttle.

The loss of the Kelvin was a BIG deal to Starfleet. We're to assume that the shipyard in Iowa was built there because it was George's hometown. It also led to the ships being MUCH larger than they were in the prime universe. It wasn't some minor border skirmish that only the historians are aware of.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But I still wanted to see Pike shag Number One.

 

[chardman]

Who's saying Pike wrote the paper decades ago? He told Kirk that he could have his own ship in 8 years. Pike could be as little as 8-10 years out of the academy himself.

Perhaps I should have said "decade(s)" or maybe just "years" for the sake of clarity. It doesn't really matter whether he wrote the paper two decades ago, two years ago, or two months ago. People tend to not bother remembering things that don't really interest them, and retain the parts that do, and it doesn't take decades, but tends to happen pretty quickly. I forgot most of the details of that paper with the Fillmore trivia, before the school-year was out, yet the parts I do remember, I remember vividly some 30-odd years later.

 

[Broccoli]

Not only those this make it evident who knows what kinda work goes into a thesis but it's also takes the comparable from a picture to referenced and thoroughly researched project as the higher expectation.

So, given that you gave a personal example earlier, you remember every single detail, every line drawn on every drawing you've ever made for immediate recall when randomly asked about it?

I think it's far more likely that over the years Pike forgot most of what he'd written about the Kelvin Incident, and that George Kirk's brief but brave captaincy might be the sole aspect of the event that stuck with him, because it inspired him in some way. I wrote plenty of papers in school about historical events, where I now remember next to nothing about the events themselves, yet retain vivid memories about a single aspect of the event, or a particular act of one or more of the persons involved.

Exactly.

Then again, none of this is an issue considering there is nothing in the film to either support or deny the idea that Pike forgot about what he wrote years earlier.

The loss of the Kelvin was a BIG deal to Starfleet. We're to assume that the shipyard in Iowa was built there because it was George's hometown. It also led to the ships being MUCH larger than they were in the prime universe. It wasn't some minor border skirmish that only the historians are aware of.

The Civil War and WWII were BIG deals to the United States. That doesn't mean that every member of the military is going to have every detail memorized of the inciting incident of those events for immediate recall, even if they wrote about it once.

Plus, you are making all sorts of inferences here that are not made in the film itself. While there is nothing wrong with that (and many of your claims seem plausible), when I did that in my earlier post, you claimed I was "apologizing". I guess my question is how come when someone throws inferences against your arguments, that's bad, but when you do it, it is seemingly good?

 

[DrBashir]

The loss of the Kelvin was not nearly as far in the past as the Civil War or WW II are from today. It would be as far in their past as 1986 is in ours. Now, Pike had to write his paper sometime after that, probably well after it. as he told Kirk that he could have his own ship in 8 years, let's say Pike was in his 4th year 10 years ago. Since he called it "my dissertation" as opposed to "a dissertation" so we can assume that it was a major part of his education and not something to be taken lightly. He would have done large amounts of research on the subject. He'd know this cold. It's not a simple paper that he wrote in class.

"A dissertation or thesis is a document submitted in support of candidature for an academic degree or professional qualification presenting the author's research and findings."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissertation

Is it possible that Pike's forgotten most of his paper? Sure is. The thing is that he uses his dissertation to tell Kirk how much he knows about him, his father and the circumstances of George's death. When he later appears to not recognize a big part of that same paper it makes him look dumb just so Kirk can look smart. We're told that Kirk is a genius by Pike but Kirk isn't shown to be smarter than anyone else. Pike is simply shown that he doesn't even remember his own paper. Kirk even calls him on it.


"That same anomaly, a lightning storm in space that we saw today, also occurred on the day of my birth, before a Romulan ship attacked the USS Kelvin.
You know that, sir. I've read your dissertation."

Pike also says he was assigned the Kelvin as the subject of his dissertation, not George Kirk specifically. As such, the circumstances of the apperance of the Kelvin should be a major part of the story as that is what drew them to the Narada in the first place.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Who here remembers the USS Stark (no Googling)?

 

[Broccoli]

DrBashir -

- Regardless of when it occurred, isn't research still research? If you need a more recent example, how about the inciting incident of the Gulf War or the Iraq War? My point remains the same.
- Perhaps he was assigned the Kelvin, but focused on George Kirk.
- Yes, it makes Kirk look smart, but it doesn't make Pike look dumb. Nothing in the film suggests he "doesn't know his own paper". Kirk doesn't call Pike on anything. Kirk basically makes his case using all the facts (which Pike didn't have) and basically says "You know I'm right." Pike had no reason to be thinking about his research prior to Kirk bringing it up. You are twisting the scene to fit your argument, an argument that has no merit.

However, as I type this, I realize you'll dismiss this by posting the same thing over again (probably with the thinking that if you post it enough, it will eventually 1) come true or 2) convince others). As such, I'm walking away from this argument since it has become completely retarded.

 

[Cyke101]

Nice to see the use of some good reasoning. Not only those this make it evident who knows what kinda work goes into a thesis but it's also takes the comparable from a picture to referenced and thoroughly researched project as the higher expectation.

So my thesis advisor, who came to my school from Yale and Berkley, is one of the leading minds in Asian American studies and literature in the country, who helped create an entire department based on that curriculum, and is, least of all, a tenured professor, has no idea what kind of work goes into a thesis because occasionally I have to remind him about what he wrote several books ago. Gotcha.

 

[DrBashir]

Pike didn't write several books. He wrote a thesis that he discussed with JTK less than three years earlier. Unless I missed the part where Pike is revealed to actually be a tenured professor with several dozen books under his belt.

Makes you wonder why he was wandering around a bar late at night. Sounds more loke something security/police should be doing not a professor.

 

[Devon]

Makes you wonder why he was wandering around a bar late at night. Sounds more loke something security/police should be doing not a professor.

I don't think anything made anyone wonder that.

 

[Cyke101]

Pike didn't write several books. He wrote a thesis that he discussed with JTK less than three years earlier. Unless I missed the part where Pike is revealed to actually be a tenured professor with several dozen books under his belt.

And we know Pike wasn't an instructor how? We know Pike didn't have tons of adventures (and Captain's Logs and reports and missions, and therefore documentation) how? We know Pike didn't write books how? We know Pike didn't encounter other vast ships and strange anomalies since the Kelvin battle how? If something like the Battle of Maxia can become required reading at the Academy in the Prime timeline, if a legend like Spock and an everyman like O'Brien can equally become teachers at the Academy, how do we know it doesn't work elsewhere?

It's getting to the point where we assume that either Starfleet personnel don't know enough or know too much that they forget information, and in either case it somehow makes us believe them to be incompetent -- but nothing in the movie suggests any of that whatsoever, other than nothing will satisfy people looking for the smallest things to nitpick; in essence, there's simply no winning. It also says that being human is a plot hole.

Makes you wonder why he was wandering around a bar late at night. Sounds more loke something security/police should be doing not a professor.

Because professors, lecturers, and training personnel can't be allowed to unwind at all? There's that pesky human side coming in again. Spock proved himself in battle in TWOK, when he was a teacher -- but nothing he did in that battle sounds like something a professor should be doing, either.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Who's saying Pike wrote the paper decades ago? He told Kirk that he could have his own ship in 8 years. Pike could be as little as 8-10 years out of the academy himself.

The story of the Kelvin was enough of an influence on Pike that he felt he should take Kirk under his wing. That shows that he felt a conenction to him. Kirk didn't even have to apply, he just showed up for the shuttle.

The loss of the Kelvin was a BIG deal to Starfleet. We're to assume that the shipyard in Iowa was built there because it was George's hometown. It also led to the ships being MUCH larger than they were in the prime universe. It wasn't some minor border skirmish that only the historians are aware of.

Much bigger than what we saw. The Enterprise in TOS and the movies could have been that era's Voyager - a smaller but no less capable version of the era's true capital ships.

 

[Guartho]

We're to assume that the shipyard in Iowa was built there because it was George's hometown.

Just what wormhole did you pull that idea out of?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So, no one remembers the USS Stark, eh? Interesting.

 

[Cyke101]

Much bigger than what we saw. The Enterprise in TOS and the movies could have been that era's Voyager - a smaller but no less capable version of the era's true capital ships.

Aye. To wit, I don't think there's any bit of dialogue in TOS or the movies that say the Constitution is the largest ship they have, only one of the most advanced (which further goes with the Voyager analogy). We don't really get any emphasis on size until the Galaxy class in TNG and the Excelsior in TSFS/TUC.