Plot hole city: Part 3!

[CorporalCaptain]

I still wonder why they couldn't have the Enterprise scanning the wreckage of the fleet for survivors. Scotty, being the chief engineer of the Farragut, gets beamed aboard, and overhears a report that the Enterprise's chief engineer has been killed. He immediately walks to Spock, explains his love and knowledge for the Enterprise ship class and convinces him he's the best for the job.

Kirk isn't exiled, he's put in a brig. The "out of your Vulcan mind" dialog between McCoy and Spock would have been the same. Old Spock walks to the outpost on Delta Vega, witnesses the destruction of Vulcan, and recognizes the Enterprise on sensors. He actively contacts the Enterprise, requesting "Captain James T. Kirk" with "information about the Romulan Nero" and requests a meeting with Kirk in the outpost.

Young Spock ponders about that, and then decides to give it a shot. Kirk is beamed down alone. Old Spock wonders why Kirk isn't Captain, mindmeld, tells Kirk he needs to take command, Kirk beams back, gets on Young Spocks nerves, breakdown, rest of the film is the same.

This would have worked much better IMO.

Or rather than "love and knowledge" (or essentially the same as it), Scotty could have been the ranking qualified officer still left alive, just like McCoy.

I agree that the Delta Vega segment in the film seemed especially half-baked.

---

But with respect to the topic of this thread, improving the plot, or even dramatically improving it, to repair weaknesses isn't the same as plugging nonexistent plot holes, when there are no holes per se.

 

[number6]

No, it isn't. It's barely a plot.

I thought the film had plenty to offer, certainly as much as any other Trek film. Your disagreement with that doesn't constitute a plothole. In fact this film had fewer plotholes than many of the other Trek films.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I thought the film had plenty to offer, certainly as much as any other Trek film. Your disagreement with that doesn't constitute a plothole.

Agreed.

In fact this film had fewer plotholes than many of the other Trek films.

I don't know about this, because I didn't keep count during I-X. All I know is I gave my beloved ST a pass before on numerous occasions.

 

[DrBashir]

No, it isn't. It's barely a plot.

I thought the film had plenty to offer, certainly as much as any other Trek film. Your disagreement with that doesn't constitute a plothole. In fact this film had fewer plotholes than many of the other Trek films.

I never called it a plothole. It, along with other Trek movies (and many others) have thin enough plots that they can't hold holes.

Star Trek is a bunch of character moments strung together with some handwavium science and fortune cookie morality with the movies adding an action sequence or two. Trying to treat Trek as some sort of serious cinematic event is just silly.

Star Trek is about the characters. Everything else is just a thin candy coating with bright colors.

And there's not a thing wrong with that.

 

[Pauln6]

They wouldn't have had the cgi lobster monster scene and scotty wouldn't have come across as comedy relief.

My preference would have been if it wasn't known what Nero was up to at that stage i.e. it isn't obvious that he's headed to Earth.

Kirk is insubordinate so Spock, who is a bit emotionally challenged, beams Kirk to the brig of the outpost with a security escort (Janice Rand). Spock can already be at the outpost and this saves about a day and removes the ludicrous need to stumble into Spock in the wilderness.

Nero could have dropped Spock Prime off in the wilderness but close enough to the outpost because he wants him to survive and then damaged the outpost's communications array OR he could have beamed his men to the array and imprisoned everybody in the brig and it's only Janice that allows them all to be freed and reveals the additional information. This introduces a theme from the original as Janice has to struggle with her orders from Spock and her admiration for the command abilities of the upstart Kirk (I'd prefer to avoid another crew love-in so I'll stick with admiration and perhaps a frisson).

Spock mind melds with Kirk as normal, revealing that Nero's next target is Earth, and without communications, they work to increase the range of the transporters (since the Enterprise has only had a short time to fly away, the distances are still fairly short).

CGI monsters can then feature when Kirk goes outside to fix some of the equipment damaged by Nero.

You save a big bunch of time, it isn't obvious to the Enterprise that Nero is headed to Earth so the threat of him holding Pike is less clear, and when Scotty works to improve the Enterprise's speed, he does such a good job that it's possible to catch the Narada, which was heading along a circuitous route (perhaps cloaked, which limits her speed due to power consumption) taking its time to get the codes off Pike.

 

[JarodRussell]

Haha, someone's quite obsessed with Janice Rand here.

 

[Pauln6]

Haha, someone's quite obsessed with Janice Rand here.

Guilty! She is the unsung heroine of TOS! The female lead that time forgot! The hair! The legs! The coffee! When we were at school Janice was our favourite because she was just so camp and universally hopeless at everything.

As an adult I just view her as the female TOS character with the most untapped potential (although Saavik and Ilia had more potential, they were movie era). Janice is also the only candidate from the original recurring characters who could easily adopt the role of action heroine. More generally, I just think the writers should put more effort into updating the female characters and featuring more of them. Not a plot hole but a pretty lousy effort at bringing the sixties franchise into the age of equality...

 

[Saquist]

Precisely! It also ties in to the issue of not very good officers getting promoted because the results they produce look good, regardless of the method used to achieve those results.

Rather deliciously, Starfleet seems to be using similar promotional techniques to those that were used by the bankers, leading to the global financial crisis - short term gains regardless of long term consequences e.g. Kirk with no diplomatic experience starting a war by shagging the Dohlman and refusing to give her up because he's an unsubordinate SOB.

One other issue that I (dis)like in this regard is the way people overlook the fact that Kirk's decision to pursue Nero to try and stop him was a poor tactical decision (not that Spock's decision to rendezvous with the fleet was any better). If Spock had not stopped him and sent him to Delta Vega they would have pursued Nero to Earth with no knowledge of the Jellyfish or red matter and no subspace transportation to board the Narada.

If Kirk had been proposing to race to Earth to bolster her automated defences (with their new codes) and assist in a desperate evacuation, that would have been a more sensible option in my view. Futile perhaps but it would have been for the Admiralty to decide what to do next.

Which brings us to another question. Since the Enterprise is within communications distance of Earth why didn't Spock seek orders from the Admiralty? Another plot hole?

All this stuff probably should have been addressed on screen, or that is to say I would have preferred that it was. Still no holes, because there are plausible ways to resolve the issues, but weaknesses at worst.

I think this is where we differ in terms of how we define a 'plot hole'. I define it as a gap in the plot that can only be explained if you pick one of several possible invented explanations that don't appear on screen. Supposition plugs the plot hole.

FYI - I agree with what you say about the Narada. The point I was making was that by delaying for as long as he did, Nero gave away any advantage he could have hoped to gain by obtaining the codes unless Starfleet is incompetent. So why bother waiting if he couldn't get the information straight away?

The worst plot holes cannot be plugged at all but normally they can be plugged somehow (the Nero is insane excuse is the 'wizard did it' excuse that can paper over a lot of cracks; Scotty is incompetent; Starfleet is incompetent etc). I think perhaps that people ascribe the term serious connotations that I don't.

They wouldn't have had the cgi lobster monster scene and scotty wouldn't have come across as comedy relief.

My preference would have been if it wasn't known what Nero was up to at that stage i.e. it isn't obvious that he's headed to Earth.

Kirk is insubordinate so Spock, who is a bit emotionally challenged, beams Kirk to the brig of the outpost with a security escort (Janice Rand). Spock can already be at the outpost and this saves about a day and removes the ludicrous need to stumble into Spock in the wilderness.

Nero could have dropped Spock Prime off in the wilderness but close enough to the outpost because he wants him to survive and then damaged the outpost's communications array OR he could have beamed his men to the array and imprisoned everybody in the brig and it's only Janice that allows them all to be freed and reveals the additional information. This introduces a theme from the original as Janice has to struggle with her orders from Spock and her admiration for the command abilities of the upstart Kirk (I'd prefer to avoid another crew love-in so I'll stick with admiration and perhaps a frisson).

Spock mind melds with Kirk as normal, revealing that Nero's next target is Earth, and without communications, they work to increase the range of the transporters (since the Enterprise has only had a short time to fly away, the distances are still fairly short).

CGI monsters can then feature when Kirk goes outside to fix some of the equipment damaged by Nero.

You save a big bunch of time, it isn't obvious to the Enterprise that Nero is headed to Earth so the threat of him holding Pike is less clear, and when Scotty works to improve the Enterprise's speed, he does such a good job that it's possible to catch the Narada, which was heading along a circuitous route (perhaps cloaked, which limits her speed due to power consumption) taking its time to get the codes off Pike.

I would say dropping the "transwarp" beaming idea entirely would be best and merely introducing the extended beaming as a NEW advent in the 24th century for solarsystem travel from planet to planet.

It's still deus ex machinma but it's far less ridicullous than suggesting in the 24th century that starship have become obsolete because we can trasport lightyears away.

Ideally I wouldn't even use.
It should be the red matter to solve the problem. This was an opportunity to have Spock play Obi Wan Kenobi and "deactivate the tractor beam" allowing the Young Heroes to save the day. We've already introduce the idea that the Red matter can cause time travel. Spock could have used a small test vile of red matter to collapse an area of space by transporting and materializing the red matter in the Enterprises trajectory spreading out it's collapsing properties over a Thousand AU and bring the Enterprise back into transporter range for a brief few seconds before the red matter destabilized and dissipated.

As for why Nero dropped Spock OFF at a Federation Outpost I think the answer is the EASIEST. VULCAN MIND PROBE. I've always liked the cool powers the vulcans had in the TOS and in the 24th century they just don't have them.

Spock has gotten out of a brig by sending a suggestion through all a wall and all sorts of crazy things. I think when Nero first captured Spock he was ready to kill him. He grabs the elder Spock by the throat intending to choke the life out of him. But the physical contact Nero initiates allows Spock one desperate and fleeting chance to drop a powerful suggestion. Though Nero's rage was too strong to directly control he manages to deflect it by massaging his ego for reveling in his revenge. But the inadvertent result is that he targets Vulcan directly.

Spock ironically becomes the catalyst for his own planets destruction. This gets rid of the plot holes concerning Nero's intentions and actions which don't quite match up as well as looking less contrived.

 

[Pauln6]

As for why Nero dropped Spock OFF at a Federation Outpost I think the answer is the EASIEST. VULCAN MIND PROBE. I've always liked the cool powers the vulcans had in the TOS and in the 24th century they just don't have them.

Spock has gotten out of a brig by sending a suggestion through all a wall and all sorts of crazy things. I think when Nero first captured Spock he was ready to kill him. He grabs the elder Spock by the throat intending to choke the life out of him. But the physical contact Nero initiates allows Spock one desperate and fleeting chance to drop a powerful suggestion. Though Nero's rage was too strong to directly control he manages to deflect it by massaging his ego for reveling in his revenge. But the inadvertent result is that he targets Vulcan directly.

Spock ironically becomes the catalyst for his own planets destruction. This gets rid of the plot holes concerning Nero's intentions and actions which don't quite match up as well as looking less contrived.

Now this idea I absolutely LOVE! But then I also really like NuBSG. I can imagine a lot of Trek fans who love their heroes being more black and white fainting at the concept of Spock inadvertantly encouraging the enemy to blow up Vulcan while trying to save his own skin. Delicious.

 

[JarodRussell]

As for why Nero dropped Spock OFF at a Federation Outpost I think the answer is the EASIEST. VULCAN MIND PROBE. I've always liked the cool powers the vulcans had in the TOS and in the 24th century they just don't have them.

Spock has gotten out of a brig by sending a suggestion through all a wall and all sorts of crazy things. I think when Nero first captured Spock he was ready to kill him. He grabs the elder Spock by the throat intending to choke the life out of him. But the physical contact Nero initiates allows Spock one desperate and fleeting chance to drop a powerful suggestion. Though Nero's rage was too strong to directly control he manages to deflect it by massaging his ego for reveling in his revenge. But the inadvertent result is that he targets Vulcan directly.

Spock ironically becomes the catalyst for his own planets destruction. This gets rid of the plot holes concerning Nero's intentions and actions which don't quite match up as well as looking less contrived.

Now this idea I absolutely LOVE! But then I also really like NuBSG. I can imagine a lot of Trek fans who love their heroes being more black and white fainting at the concept of Spock inadvertantly encouraging the enemy to blow up Vulcan while trying to save his own skin. Delicious.

That's not bad at all, I like it!

 

[Set Harth]

So much for the whole "needs of the many" thing...

 

[number6]

This thread makes me like JJ Abrams and Co more and more.

 

[JarodRussell]

So much for the whole "needs of the many" thing...

Well, the needs of the many thing should have led Old Spock to attempt time travel to push the reset button by saving the Kelvin. Or to ignite the Red Matter as soon as he's captured by Nero.

 

[Set Harth]

Well, the needs of the many thing should have led Old Spock to attempt time travel to push the reset button by saving the Kelvin.

...which he could do at any point in time, so he would have to do everything he could to help the people in the Abramsverse first before jetting off to yet another universe.

 

[DrBashir]

"The needs of the many/one" only applies to your close, personal friends.

 

[JarodRussell]

This thread makes me like JJ Abrams and Co more and more.

 

[Pauln6]

"The needs of the many/one" only applies to your close, personal friends.

If fewer people died on Vulcan than on Romulus, the old adage still applies...

 

[DrBashir]

All old Spock has to do is slingshot back to the time that the Ent-E was meeting up with Cochrane and hitch a ride back to the future. Once there he has years to prepare the red matter and stop the supernova. Easy-peasy. Nobody dies.

 

[Pauln6]

Time travel doesn't work like that any more. A Romulan went back as part of the Temporal Cold War and changed the script.

 

[M'Sharak]

This thread makes me like JJ Abrams and Co more and more.

The two previous threads in this "series" were closed because people kept getting too personal, and you had to go there.

That'll earn you a warning for trolling; comments to PM.