Spoilers Picard Series Retrospective: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[evilchumlee]

I don't get this argument. Him coming back doesn't undo his sacrifice.

It kind of does... because... he didn't actually die. A sacrifice only really works if something is lost. But... i'm also not particularly zealous about this. It's fine.

The real damning point to the idea of Confederation-Past-Guinan being distinct from Federation-Past-Guinan is that Federation-Present-Guinan remembered everything that happened in the past in the season finale. So does Federation-Present-Guinan also not remember "Time's Arrow" because she's actually Confederation-Past-Shimed-To-Federation-Present Guinan, and all pre-2024 time-travel in Star Trek post-Picard has been replaced with similar but distinct Confederation versions? Does Confederation-Past-Guinan suddenly remember, "I already met that old guy when I was hanging out with Mark Twain," when team-Picard averts the Confederation timeline and she becomes Federation-Past-Guinan again?

Now *THIS* is the better question.

I can comfortably put this in the "Q did it" category. This wasn't "normal" time travel... any of the normal rules can be thrown out the window. We've never seen a consciousness time travel independent of its body, inhabit a body in a different timeline, time travel to the past, and then return to the original timeline still in the body of the alternate timeline (which also means... shouldn't Prime Timeline Picard still be there when Confederation Picard Body shows up?)

This is all Q rules now. Q made this time travel happen. Q sent everyone back. Q let Guinan remember what happened in both timelines... Or it might not even be Q chicanery and just El Aurian chickanery... she might remember the S2 events and the 1895 just by virtue of being El Aurian.

EDIT -

*OR* a third option is that actually yes, Picard was always in 1895. Guinan was suffering from the timeline sickness. She wasn't at 100%, it's been established that the shifting timelines can have a dramatic effect on El Aurians. She may not have remembered Picard from 1895 just because he timeline-senses were all out of wack.

 

[fireproof78]

It kind of does... because... he didn't actually die. A sacrifice only really works if something is lost. But... i'm also not particularly zealous about this. It's fine.

Agree to disagree, because he didn't know he would live. That's the nature of sacrifice to me.

For me, the character perspective makes all the difference in the world. Spock's sacrifice in TWOK is not undone because he ends up coming back. Likewise, Spock's efforts to save Pike from his fate in the Menagerie are not less dramatic because he receives no punitive measures.

Regardless of the consequence, if a character walks in to a situation thinking they are going to die then that carries the meaning. Mileage will vary.

 

[Dukhat]

If Prime Picard's timeline is erased, Prime Picard never exists. If Prime Picard never exists, he could not go to 1895. It is not a shared timeline. If someone from the future time travels into the past, but their future no longer exists, making it so that they never time travelled into the past... they... never time travelled into the past.

...Because the punk seemed to remember his encounter with Kirk and Spock, which means that the Confederation timeline version of Kirk and Spock must have travelled to 1986. It could have possibly not been because of the wale probe... it could have been some other reason... or hell maybe they time travelled to a different year and had a similar encounter with that punk (we also know in Trek that the timeline will attempt to "repair" itself).

You are going under a false assumption. You seem to think that the prime timeline was erased, and that Punk on the Bus was remembering a similar encounter with Confederacy Kirk and Spock. But that's nonsense. If 2024 was the point where the timeline changed (because that was clearly mentioned in the show, which was the entire reason why they went back to that point in time), then by the 23rd century of the Confederacy timeline, there would be no "Kirk and Spock." The Confederacy hates all aliens. Kirk and Spock would not be working together to save Earth by going back in time to rescue whales. They would be bitter enemies. Sarek was beheaded in front of his wife and son. Why would Confederacy Spock be helping Kirk to save Earth? Heck, why would Spock, a half-Vulcan half-Human, even exist? And why would Amanda, a human, have even married a Vulcan? Maybe Q was referring to the Vulcan priestess and Sybok when he referred to Sarek's 'wife and son.'

No, the clear implication of that scene was to link the events of TVH to the story, just like the Sanctuary Disctricts were meant to link the DS9 episode "Past Tense" to the story. Matalas either didn't know about the events of "Time's Arrow," forgot them, or just didn't care.

 

[evilchumlee]

You are going under a false assumption. You seem to think that the prime timeline was erased, and that Punk on the Bus was remembering a similar encounter with Confederacy Kirk and Spock. But that's nonsense. If 2024 was the point where the timeline changed (because that was clearly mentioned in the show, which was the entire reason why they went back to that point in time), then by the 23rd century of the Confederacy timeline, there would be no "Kirk and Spock." The Confederacy hates all aliens. Kirk and Spock would not be working together to save Earth by going back in time to rescue whales. They would be bitter enemies. Sarek was beheaded in front of his wife and son. Why would Confederacy Spock be helping Kirk to save Earth? Heck, why would Spock, a half-Vulcan half-Human, even exist? And why would Amanda, a human, have even married a Vulcan? Maybe Q was referring to the Vulcan priestess and Sybok when he referred to Sarek's 'wife and son.'

These are all interesting questions that we don't know the answer to. I can conjecture all day. They had an alien slave class. Perhaps Spock was Kirk's manservant?

It's also possible that the punk was recalling a similar incident that may have occurred with Kirk and -notSpock-.

No, the clear implication of that scene was to link the events of TVH to the story, just like the Sanctuary Disctricts were meant to link the DS9 episode "Past Tense" to the story. Matalas either didn't know about the events of "Time's Arrow," forgot them, or just didn't care.

It's almost certainly more complicated than that. I don't believe Matalas didn't know or forgot about Time's Arrow. He's very much a Star Trek geek like us. Rather, it fit the story better to have Guinan not know Picard. That's the explanation.

The particulars can be left up to us.

If you really want to keep the former time travel in place, let's also not forget that it was 1895... that was a long time ago. Guinan may well have just not recognized Picard after over a century, and even the whole idea that "but, he was a time traveler!" doesn't really say much... we know there's all manner of time travelers and aliens on Earth. It's not a particularly unique situation.

In the 24th century parts of Time's Arrow, Guinan now definitely does remember Picard from the couple of past interactions they had and put two and two together. Hell she may not have even just straight up recognized him at first but when she heard about the situation with Data's head... she was like "Oh shit, it's THAT guy!"

I know it's more fun for some people to want to crap of Matalas for... making a good show(?) but i'd rather just talk about what happened on screen rather than just saying "writer sucked".

 

[Dukhat]

These are all interesting questions that we don't know the answer to. I can conjecture all day. They had an alien slave class. Perhaps Spock was Kirk's manservant?

It's also possible that the punk was recalling a similar incident that may have occurred with Kirk and -notSpock-.



It's almost certainly more complicated than that. I don't believe Matalas didn't know or forgot about Time's Arrow. He's very much a Star Trek geek like us. Rather, it fit the story better to have Guinan not know Picard. That's the explanation.

The particulars can be left up to us.

If you really want to keep the former time travel in place, let's also not forget that it was 1895... that was a long time ago. Guinan may well have just not recognized Picard after over a century, and even the whole idea that "but, he was a time traveler!" doesn't really say much... we know there's all manner of time travelers and aliens on Earth. It's not a particularly unique situation.

In the 24th century parts of Time's Arrow, Guinan now definitely does remember Picard from the couple of past interactions they had and put two and two together. Hell she may not have even just straight up recognized him at first but when she heard about the situation with Data's head... she was like "Oh shit, it's THAT guy!"

I know it's more fun for some people to want to crap of Matalas for... making a good show(?) but i'd rather just talk about what happened on screen rather than just saying "writer sucked".

We will agree to disagree.

 

[Uhura's Song]

First off, I am clearly a S3>S1>S2 guy. But I generally liked S1, S2 was not good, though.

S1: Lots to like here. I like the post supernova Picard/SF fallout. I like Raffi. Really like Rios and his backstory. Thought it meshed well with the Androids. Loved the family Riker stuff. Loved Laris. I though Pill knocked it out of the park. Liked a post SF Seven. Liked the Romulan spy & his badasss sister. Loved the Data death scene.

S1: not so great.

Hugh's death. Another Dr. Soong. The Doctor Who magic screwdriver solution at the end. A secret Romulan society being able to muster 100s of ships was ridiculous. And the cut & paste Starfleet ships. And the dress up episode.

S2: Loved Seven's journey without the implants. And Pill's work again. The Confederation stuff was OK. As was new/old Guinan, Wesley, and the Borg Queen/splinter group. And the Operation: Earth spin. Loved Laris, again. Rios' death was fine with me. Loved Q's reintroduction.

S2: No real explanation for what was ailing Q. The Soong/Ahas plotline. Picard/pilot infiltration episode. Them not seeing the Borg Queen thing coming a mile away. The whole middle part of the season. The Seven/Raffi romance.

S3: Almost universally well done.

S3: Picking nits. Did not love leaving Laris hanging. Or Ro's death (although she went out like a badass). And the two ships vs the fleet thing went in WAY too long to be plausible to me (in Prodigy as well). The one episode where Riker chipdishly yelled at Pucard after their attack felt wrong and really bugged me.

 

[Uhura's Song]

S1: Good
S2: Bad
S3: Very Good to Great

 

[Daedalus]

An ugly thing that annoys me about S3 is Data's projector eyes. That didn't need to be a thing...

 

[FredH]

Four main nits for S3, even though I mostly enjoyed it just fine (all spoilers, but I guess that’s understood in this thread):

1. “They’re sending them to their deaths.” So all of a sudden setting phasers to kill is the default?

2. Apparently most of those masked figures on the Shrike were supposed to be Changelings. Why were they just attacking like normal chumps instead of using their natural abilities?

3. The “intentional Star Trek Moment” where they briefly see alien life forms and Crusher piously intones “To seek out new life…” …c’mon.

4. MARRY LARIS and TELL EVERYBODY YOU DID, YOU JERK! ESPECIALLY CRUSHER!

 

[HotRod]

MARRY LARIS and TELL EVERYBODY YOU DID, YOU JERK! ESPECIALLY CRUSHER!

#JusticeForLaris

 

[FredH]

I do also think, for the series overall, that more should have been made of the fact that

Spoiler

the Romulans essentially sabotaged the saving of much or most of their own population, and did so by committing a tremendous act of war against the Federation that should realistically have dramatically worsened tensions once it came out.

EDIT: Also, not a not but a missed opportunity: Something should also have been made of the apparent fact that

Spoiler

Jean-Luc Picard really did die at the end of S1, and the Picard we’ve followed since is a newly-created being imprinted with the original man’s memories. There should at least have been a scene of nuPicard looking thoughtfully over his own corpse.

 

[TedShatner10]

A secret Romulan society being able to muster 100s of ships was ridiculous.

The Romulan Star Empire was gone but my headcanon is that a fanatical Romulan faction sitting on a Borg cube with its resources and able amass resources privately for what was a modest fleet really (able to bully a planet, but not go against Starfleet).

And the cut & paste Starfleet ships. And the dress up episode.

I cheered at the arrival of Starfleet and Riker back in the chair but the "cut 'n paste" ships was a sign of a rushed production for a rushed ending.

Season 2 wasn't very good but the Raffi/Seven relationship had more chemistry or meaning than what ever the Hell happened between Seven/Chuckles.

 

[GulBahana]

I was fairly happy with the series as a whole. First and third seasons stand out. The downsides are the Rumulan swordsman and having to kill two well-known characters to give Seven motivation.

 

[Dukhat]

2. Apparently most of those masked figures on the Shrike were supposed to be Changelings. Why were they just attacking like normal chumps instead of using their natural abilities?

Because Matalas has his head up his ass?

I do also think, for the series overall, that more should have been made of the fact that

Spoiler

the Romulans essentially sabotaged the saving of much or most of their own population, and did so by committing a tremendous act of war against the Federation that should realistically have dramatically worsened tensions once it came out.

I don't think I need spoiler tags this far out. The Romulans who sabotaged the rescue fleet were just a small cult. Tensions with any surviving Romulans wouldn't have worsened after this was made known because of that. If anything, the Federation should have declared that Oh and her ilk were guilty of war crimes and hunted them down.

 

[FredH]

Because Matalas has his head up his ass?



I don't think I need spoiler tags this far out. The Romulans who sabotaged the rescue fleet were just a small cult. Tensions with any surviving Romulans wouldn't have worsened after this was made known because of that. If anything, the Federation should have declared that Oh and her ilk were guilty of war crimes and hunted them down.

Maybe, but my impression was that that small cult was the controlling inner circle at the head of the Tal Shi’ar, which in turn was the effective controllers of the Romulan military/government, Senate or no Senate?

 

[Dukhat]

Maybe, but my impression was that that small cult was the controlling inner circle at the head of the Tal Shi’ar, which in turn was the effective controllers of the Romulan military/government, Senate or no Senate?

Possibly, but that doesn't change the fact that the Federation can't really go to war with a people whose primary planet was destroyed and most of its people killed, thanks to a relatively small group of cultists, Tal Shiar linked or not.

 

[StarTrek1701]

1. Going off ST:2009, Romulans should never have been destroyed, but they were.
2. Make it make sense that Romulans were refugees, when they were a fucking empire just a couple of years before the Hobus star supernova
3. Oh golly gee, Romulans still have complete star fleets that can go toe to toe with Federation vessels!
4. So why are they acting like refugees scattered during a time of replicators??

PIC S01 makes no sense, S02 is like a bad fanfic writer getting command of the Fleet.
Thank God S03 returned to form but Sir Stewart hated that so...

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe, but my impression was that that small cult was the controlling inner circle at the head of the Tal Shi’ar, which in turn was the effective controllers of the Romulan military/government, Senate or no Senate?

It's not like leadership in the Romulan Star Empire was at its peak around the time of the supernova. They just gotten done with a war, with at least one senator a casualty, as well as the Tal Shi'ar attempted to destroy the founders, only the get a large chunk of ships destroyed.

Then a coup attempt by the Remans, resulting in the death of the praetor, and the majority of the Senate. Then the coup instigator is killed. Even if the Tal Shi'ar was controlling these aspects, there are limits when you suffer loss after loss.

Then you have essentially a doomsday cult step in to power and be able to direct the assets of the military enough to keep them for themselves, while the rest of the Empire faces collapse. Never mind whatever opportunistic powers jumped in for pieces of the Romulan pie while they dealt with internal matters.

 

[Yistaan]

The ugly was the unnecessary Crusher character assassination and the implication that Picard was a superhero-level target that needed a secret identity to justify Crusher ghosting him. If they wanted an explanation for her absence, she could have been out traveling with/searching for Wesley.

 

[Will_Carter]

Jack is not an interesting character, and this season's over reliance on the mystery box is frustrating.

S1.
Good: The moment with Hugh. Picard having to come to terms iwth and being displeased over Starfleet. Picard and Data's conversation when Picard died. More romulans. Hobas fallout. I kindal iked the Fenris Rangers as a concept.
The bad: Data. Why was he here again beyond memberberries? The Borg by and large felt... 'Meh.'
The Ugly: Icheb's not even allowed to be a character. I have to mention the 'Trek is not for You' rhetoric and a lot of the pre-release finger pointing. No look here you .... Frak I can't use Mellenoid Slime Worm as an insult (one of my favorite OC's I've seen is one.) Just... No. trek is for Everyone, and those that were being told 'TREK IS NOT FOR YOU' are the people that most need the humanitarian message trek offers.

S2
Good: ....Q's exit. It felt nessicary. It was ... Look I'm gonan be blunt. I didn't like S2. I thought it was deeply emotionally gratifying. The Confederation Timeline genuinely felt INTERESTING.
Bad: the Borg and Trhe Cooperative. That ENTIRE plot just felt... 'I thought we were DONE with the borg. Why is it always Borg with Picard.
Ugly: I'm gonan be blunt. I hated S2 and skipped out on a lot of it because I just didn't feel invested or really care.

S3
Good: The Titan-A. She's a good ship. She's got a solid crew (For the most part.) The Changeling plot was fascinating. Getting The Family back together is something I enjoyed. Special standout for the final Data V Lore confrontation. It was solved in the most Trek way. It gave us Data as Soong had hoped and envisioned that he would end up being. Getting to see My Enterprise... the one I grew up with. I got to see her FLY. That will never not make me tear up. Riker and Worf. They play off eachother well. Shaw geeking out over meeting Gordi was... such a relatable moment I wish those two had gotten to meet under more peaceful conditions and just nerd out over engineering stuff.
Bad: Shaw. I get the guy. I empathize with him. From his perspective Picard and Riker are the obstructive admiral of the week that coems on board and makes a mess of everything. However I feel between that and thedeadnaming arc wit hSeven just went on for too long to the point his assessment log at the end just felt like a hamfisted attempt at post death redemption. the mistrust the plot put on everyone that wasn't The Family. Like at every turn we're given reasosn nobody but them can trust eachother and that is a deeply anti trek message. Comedy moments at Worf's expense. Titan-A being renamed. I get it, they kinda wanted to do a hat tip in universe but from the perspective of transitioning into a 'Star Trek Legacy' show? I'd have preferred she remain the Titan A.
Ugly: Jack. I genuinely don't like the character. It's a combination of the writing feeling very 'we're going to make him this arrogant jerk and a cassanova wannabe' ... and the actor can't pull it off. Yet more Borg. Just... UUUGH... Lady didn't we kill you in First Contact? How are you even? WHY are you even... Just.... STOP EXISTING. the Fleet Protocol thing. Shelby.. .shelby... SHELBY... WHY?! I will spare you the ted talk on why it was stupid and just leave you with the fact it was. Q showing up at the end. I get the idea here, but why not have it explicitely be Jr? 'I wanted to see what my old man saw in you Picards...'