Is Clint Memberberries?
Spoilers Picard Series Retrospective: the Good, the Bad and the Ugly
- Thread starter fireproof78
- Start date
No, he's the same character as Balok who is the same character as Sanctuary District bum who is the same character as Muk who is the same character as Buck Martinez, apparently.
But is he creepy Orion?
Him too.
The only logical reason for so many characters to look similar.
"Hello, Spock."
"That's not true. That's impossible!"
"Search your feelings, Spock, you know its true."
"NOOOOOOOOOOO!"
I still don't see that.
She was just being a creep, nothing incest about it.
While it's not explicitly said on screen, the androids being used on Mars were not intended to be sentient. They were no more slaves than the ships computer is.
IIRC that was explained in Season 2. She was let off because she was brainwashed by Oh.
Because she isn't the same Guinan we know from TNG. She never met Picard before because the timeline changed.
There was going to be a line in Season 3 to explain that, but they cut it for some reason.
It was opened by the Borg Queen as a distraction to keep the Jurati collective away.
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No, you're just choosing not to interpret the dialogue the way it was intended.
True. I was referring to the idea implied in 'Children of Mars' that the androids went rogue of their own volition, which was not the idea that Chabon was actually going for.
That was the explanation mentioned in Season 2, but that wasn't what actually happened. She was not acting under any brainwashing influence when she killed Maddox. That was a retcon.
No, that was after-the-fact nonsense made up by Matalas because fans were asking why Guinan didn't remember Picard from Time's Arrow. And as much as you want to be a Matalas apologist by brushing off Old Punk on the Bus as an ‘Easter egg,’ he clearly remembered his encounter with Kirk and Spock. Which he would not have done had the timeline changed.
Ok. That still doesn’t explain why the Borgati collective completely vanished by the start of season 3.
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S1: Good
S2: Ok
S3: Ehh!
S2: Ok
S3: Ehh!
I'll start, by and large, fantastic. Just. Fantastic.
Not perfect, but still overall good enough that I can excuse the warts.
To go more indepth...
S1: It stumbled a bit trying to figure out what it was, and probably tried a bit too hard to be edgy. Still, I thought the season did a great job utilizing Picard's backstory and I thought the new characters were compelling for the most part.
I do think the ending felt a bit rushed, and I think we needed a bit more of the Reaper Aliens. Having Picard "die" and then come back as an android was my least favorite part of the show. "I'm an android now, but totally programmed to age and everything so lets just forget that and i'm just Picard again". That was weak.
"Stardust City Rag" was my favorite episode of the season, and was fun overall.
S2: I honestly enjoy S2 quite a bit. It wasn't what I expected, but that's ok. To start with the good, I think it did a good job at delving into Picard's past and that was REALLY the story of the season. The unexpected tie-in to Gary Seven was pretty cool, and I think the story worked overall. On the lore side, I appreciated that they still tried to include pieces of what we knew about the time from past Trek's, like the Sanctuary Districts and the idea that the US/world was slipping into authoritarianism. Nice touches.
I would have liked them to spend some more time in the Confederation timeline. I also wanted a bit more of Q's motivations. He seems to blame Picard for everything, but the show never really explains why. I was expecting some kind of revelation of Picard screwing things up, but... it didn't happen? I'm also a tad unclear as to why Adam Soong becomes a savior if Renee Picard dies... it seems to be the shield technology that he had, but a big deal is made about being a geneticist... did he do some genetic engineering that saved Earth, or did he just build a big energy shield around it?
I can't say I have a favorite episode here, but overall I actually liked S2 more than I thought I would.
S3: Damn near perfection. It's rare that i'm so satisfied with a media production anymore. Even when I have little in the way of expectations, i'm still somehow disappointed. I honestly would be hard pressed to find any real criticism here. Picard S3 was an absolute masterpiece. The world is a better place for it existing.
Wait what?
It all makes total sense. Confederation Picard didn't go to the 1800's, so he never met Guinan. That does not mean Confederation Kirk and Spock did not go 1986. The timeline changed in 2024... the Whale Probe was already coming. That wasn't going to change, so it would seem like similar events occurred with Confederation Kirk and Spock in alt-1986.
Those two events are completely unrelated.
Not perfect, but still overall good enough that I can excuse the warts.
To go more indepth...
S1: It stumbled a bit trying to figure out what it was, and probably tried a bit too hard to be edgy. Still, I thought the season did a great job utilizing Picard's backstory and I thought the new characters were compelling for the most part.
I do think the ending felt a bit rushed, and I think we needed a bit more of the Reaper Aliens. Having Picard "die" and then come back as an android was my least favorite part of the show. "I'm an android now, but totally programmed to age and everything so lets just forget that and i'm just Picard again". That was weak.
"Stardust City Rag" was my favorite episode of the season, and was fun overall.
S2: I honestly enjoy S2 quite a bit. It wasn't what I expected, but that's ok. To start with the good, I think it did a good job at delving into Picard's past and that was REALLY the story of the season. The unexpected tie-in to Gary Seven was pretty cool, and I think the story worked overall. On the lore side, I appreciated that they still tried to include pieces of what we knew about the time from past Trek's, like the Sanctuary Districts and the idea that the US/world was slipping into authoritarianism. Nice touches.
I would have liked them to spend some more time in the Confederation timeline. I also wanted a bit more of Q's motivations. He seems to blame Picard for everything, but the show never really explains why. I was expecting some kind of revelation of Picard screwing things up, but... it didn't happen? I'm also a tad unclear as to why Adam Soong becomes a savior if Renee Picard dies... it seems to be the shield technology that he had, but a big deal is made about being a geneticist... did he do some genetic engineering that saved Earth, or did he just build a big energy shield around it?
I can't say I have a favorite episode here, but overall I actually liked S2 more than I thought I would.
S3: Damn near perfection. It's rare that i'm so satisfied with a media production anymore. Even when I have little in the way of expectations, i'm still somehow disappointed. I honestly would be hard pressed to find any real criticism here. Picard S3 was an absolute masterpiece. The world is a better place for it existing.
Wait what?
It all makes total sense. Confederation Picard didn't go to the 1800's, so he never met Guinan. That does not mean Confederation Kirk and Spock did not go 1986. The timeline changed in 2024... the Whale Probe was already coming. That wasn't going to change, so it would seem like similar events occurred with Confederation Kirk and Spock in alt-1986.
Those two events are completely unrelated.
That’s not how it works.
Prior to 2024, both the prime timeline and the Confederation timeline had a shared past. That was the whole point of going back in time, to change the events that led to the Confederation coming into existence. Even if Confederation Picard went back in time to 2024 (or more accurately, Prime Picard in Confederation Picard’s body), Guinan should still have recognized him because the prime timeline version of him went back to 1895 of this shared timeline. Even if Kelvin timeline Kirk went back to 1895, Data’s head from the prime timeline would still be buried under San Francisco, even though in his timeline, Data might not even exist, because prior to Nero’s incursion in 2233, the PT and the KT had a shared past, and Data’s head was a predestination paradox (i.e. it was always buried under San Francisco.) That’s why the Punk on the Bus remembered his encounter with prime Kirk & Spock, despite them potentially existing as completely different people in the Confederation timeline.
And as far as the Whale Probe in 2286 of the Confederation timeline? How do we know that they didn’t just destroy it, and thereby have no reason for Confederation Kirk and Co. to go back in time to 1986 to find some whales?
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Wasn't it that he used the knowledge from the mission to engineer asked off of the bacteria discovered?
I mean, Data is programmed to age too. So consistency of technology for the win?
How do you know what the intent was?
You see Oh meld with her, it's not a retcon.
No it wasn't. Matalas is also not the only one from the show bring it up. They discussed it in the writers room.
Easter Eggs are allowed to break the fourth wall. The writer even admitted it didn't make sense with the rules they established with Guinan in the writers room.
They were guarding the transwarp conduit, they explain that at the end of Season 2.
It was blatantly obvious?
And yet she quite clearly knew what she was doing when she killed him, wanted to kill him of her own volition, and didn't mention to Picard that she was under any sort of influence when he found out what she did.
Was it mentioned on screen?
Do you know what an easter egg is? It's when you see the Millennium Falcon or R2-D2 quickly fly by for less than a second during a scene with Star Trek ships flying around. Punk on the Bus was not an easter egg. He was clearly there to establish a link between the time-travelling Seven of Nine/Raffi in 2024, and 1986 Kirk/Spock.
Guarding it from whatever it was that was coming through it, which they didn't bother to explain or elaborate further upon.
How very Star Trek.
Season 1 was a good way to introduce the show and characters, Season 2 should just be forgotten. Season 3 was probably a little too heavy on the memberberries, but that's also what people wanted from the show. The whole timeline and how everything lines up is all screwy and the showrunners trying to clean it up via social media didn't really help things.
That's also not how it works.
If Prime Picard's timeline is erased, Prime Picard never exists. If Prime Picard never exists, he could not go to 1895. It is not a shared timeline. If someone from the future time travels into the past, but their future no longer exists, making it so that they never time travelled into the past... they... never time travelled into the past.
We know from Daniels that timeline changes happen in a "ripple", and what happens in the future absolutely does and can affect the past.
Only if Kelvin Timeline Data existed and travelled to 1895. If Kelvin Data did not, there was nobody to travel to 1895.
Because the punk seemed to remember his encounter with Kirk and Spock, which means that the Confederation timeline version of Kirk and Spock must have travelled to 1986. It could have possibly not been because of the wale probe... it could have been some other reason... or hell maybe they time travelled to a different year and had a similar encounter with that punk (we also know in Trek that the timeline will attempt to "repair" itself)
There *IS* something of a paradox here though. The way that Q had engineered this time travel was such a way that he transported the consciousnesses of the crew into the Confederation timeline bodies... which were subsequently the ones who time travelled and then "returned" to the Prime timeline... except for Rios, who stayed behind and didn't blink out of existence.
We have two contradictory things happening here, but that's time travel. The only rules is there are no rules. We do have an easy out for this though... Star Trek's version of "A wizard did it"... Q made sure everything worked out.
Maybe? The whole thing was a bit unclear. Renee Picard saved Earth by finding the alien bacteria that apparently cleaned Earth's atmosphere... but then if she dies, Earth is sustained by a giant force field that looks exactly like the force fields Soong had to protect Not-Soji, but also he was a geneticist who might have made his own bacteria to clean Earth's atmosphere... but then... why did they need the shield to do it too?
I'm also mildly unclear on what "a different dude fixes the atmosphere" turns Earth into a xenophobic warrior empire. Like, why did Adam Soong fixing things make us hate aliens?
I honestly really enjoyed Season 2, but I was left with alot of questions. The whole reason for them being in 2024 was convoluted... "Q is dying and angry at Picard because Picard somehow ruined everything so he sends them to 2024 while also trying to kill Renee Picard to make Earth becomes Confederation Earth because that happens for some reason, and also Picard needs to learn about what happened to his mom, which he needed to be in 2024 for some reason to learn about, but also we needed to be in 2024 because Alt-Borg Queen needed to come into Prime to merge with Jurati so we could get Good Borg to come and save the Federation from weird anomaly thing."
I... don't know?!
Yeah it's hardly a deal breaker. Just... felt a bit lazy. I don't think there was any benefit to killing Picard just to bring him back literally a minute later to just be like "I'm an android now, but let's just kind of forget about it?" At the very least, i'm happy that S3 utilized it as a plot point with Picard's corpse, although that could have also been done easily enough with just trying to... capture Picard.
I'm fine with the idea that the androids are programmed to age... although it seems to defeat the entire purpose of why Altoon Soong developed the technology, as he was specifically trying to cheat death...
I don't get this argument. Him coming back doesn't undo his sacrifice.
The real damning point to the idea of Confederation-Past-Guinan being distinct from Federation-Past-Guinan is that Federation-Present-Guinan remembered everything that happened in the past in the season finale. So does Federation-Present-Guinan also not remember "Time's Arrow" because she's actually Confederation-Past-Shimed-To-Federation-Present Guinan, and all pre-2024 time-travel in Star Trek post-Picard has been replaced with similar but distinct Confederation versions? Does Confederation-Past-Guinan suddenly remember, "I already met that old guy when I was hanging out with Mark Twain," when team-Picard averts the Confederation timeline and she becomes Federation-Past-Guinan again?
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