Opinions on Chakotay & Seven

[kimc]

Chakotay clearly had something for Janeway. She turned him down.

It seemed like a mutual decision based on their desire the get the crew home. Circumstances for all three are changed once they return. Janeway will no longer be tied to the ship and Seven will have all the options and dating opportunities the Federation can throw at her. As for Chakotay, sure no healthy male is going to turn down a young blonde when he's not in a serious relationship but after his curiousity is satisfied in that area what's to stop him from satisfying it in another.

And before anyone says he would be acting sleazy keep in mind sexual attitudes in the 25th century are a bit different...

 

[AuntKate]

We really don't know whether Janeway turned him down or whether they decided, together, not to pursue a relationship. I think that two Starfleet-trained officers would probably come to a mutual understanding about fraternization that the writers simply didn't bother to put on screen.

As for waiting seven years for someone, it's hardly unusual. Many people carry a torch for another person for seven years and longer. I can tell you of at least three or four friends that filed for divorce when they ran into an old flame at a high school or college reunion. Whether they'd actually dated or not, when they realized that they could finally be together, they filed for divorce and married the long-lost love decades after their initial attraction. It happens a lot. Sad but true.

 

[exodus]

Chakotay clearly had something for Janeway. She turned him down.

It seemed like a mutual decision based on their desire the get the crew home. Circumstances for all three are changed once they return. Janeway will no longer be tied to the ship and Seven will have all the options and dating opportunities the Federation can throw at her. As for Chakotay, sure no healthy male is going to turn down a young blonde when he's not in a serious relationship but after his curiousity is satisfied in that area what's to stop him from satisfying it in another.

Due to persional preferance, not all guys are attracked to young and/or blonde.

Second, if Chakotay is going to be viewed as shallow. Hoping from one woman to another simply due to curiousity and youth, why would Chakotay ever stay with Janeway? She would be just a notch on his bed post too.

 

[teya]

I can tell you of at least three or four friends that filed for divorce when they ran into an old flame at a high school or college reunion. Whether they'd actually dated or not, when they realized that they could finally be together, they filed for divorce and married the long-lost love decades after their initial attraction. It happens a lot. Sad but true.

I agree. Sad. Very sad.

Just because "people do it" doesn't make it healthy or something worthy of praise.

 

[exodus]

I can tell you of at least three or four friends that filed for divorce when they ran into an old flame at a high school or college reunion. Whether they'd actually dated or not, when they realized that they could finally be together, they filed for divorce and married the long-lost love decades after their initial attraction. It happens a lot. Sad but true.

I agree. Sad. Very sad.

Just because "people do it" doesn't make it healthy or something worthy of praise.

Yep, the first they call that person is a "home wreaker".

 

[Madzilla]

We really don't know whether Janeway turned him down or whether they decided, together, not to pursue a relationship. I think that two Starfleet-trained officers would probably come to a mutual understanding about fraternization that the writers simply didn't bother to put on screen.

Yep! You see that in fanfics a lot, poor rejected Chakotay, but in fact Janeway never actually turned him down in any episode - it was never even addressed, hence the frustration from many fans at the lack of resolution. It might have been a bit better if they had had that conversation at some point.

It was done really well in the short story Isabo's Shirt in the Distant Shores anthology - bits of which were referred to in Full Circle - if only something like that had been in an episode! But nothing of the sort happened during all 7 seasons, though of course you can read between the lines.

 

[exodus]

We really don't know whether Janeway turned him down or whether they decided, together, not to pursue a relationship. I think that two Starfleet-trained officers would probably come to a mutual understanding about fraternization that the writers simply didn't bother to put on screen.

Yep! You see that in fanfics a lot, poor rejected Chakotay, but in fact Janeway never actually turned him down in any episode - it was never even addressed, hence the frustration from many fans at the lack of resolution. It might have been a bit better if they had had that conversation at some point.

Seriously, you mean calling him "good friend" and creating a hologram for romantic interest and then asking Chakotay for sexual advice about it wasn't a big enough clue?

Why would Janeway rub it in Chakotay's face like that about her sexual romps with someone else besides him, if she held any interest in him? Doesn't anyone see that as cruel?

 

[teya]

We really don't know whether Janeway turned him down or whether they decided, together, not to pursue a relationship. I think that two Starfleet-trained officers would probably come to a mutual understanding about fraternization that the writers simply didn't bother to put on screen.

Yep! You see that in fanfics a lot, poor rejected Chakotay, but in fact Janeway never actually turned him down in any episode - it was never even addressed, hence the frustration from many fans at the lack of resolution. It might have been a bit better if they had had that conversation at some point.

Seriously, you mean calling him "good friend" and creating a hologram for romantic interest and then asking Chakotay for sexual advice about it wasn't a big enough clue?

Why would Janeway rub it in Chakotay's face like that about her sexual romps with someone else besides him, if she held any interest in him? Doesn't anyone see that as cruel?

I do.

 

[kimc]

Second, if Chakotay is going to be viewed as shallow. Hoping from one woman to another simply due to curiousity and youth, why would Chakotay ever stay with Janeway? She would be just a notch on his bed post too.

Again you're looking at it with 21st century morals. As for why he would stay with Janeway maybe he wouldn't but the fact is they already have a relationship (yes a friendship is still a relationship) while he isn't even friends with Seven.

BTW, just because a man and a woman are friends doesn't mean it can't progress to something more. Sure, a woman will say "Can't we just be friends?" to a man she starts dating but isn't interested in being intimate with. This is not a tactic I personally believe is a good one but it happens.

However, acknowledging a friendship with a man after it already exists is not a "kiss of death" - it's stating a fact.

 

[kimc]

Why would Janeway rub it in Chakotay's face like that about her sexual romps with someone else besides him, if she held any interest in him? Doesn't anyone see that as cruel?

I saw it as an opportunity for him to speak up and state what he wanted - especially if it was a ploy to make him jealous. However, I can't see Janeway engaging in those types of games (she's not that cruel) so the assumption that they have a mutual understanding holds.

Besides, when he said "we all do it" she hardly seemed surprised!

 

[Guy Gardener]

No one thinks that Chakotay needed a break from women in general after the super betrayalS from that lover of his Seska he had right at the beginning?

Lets see?

She was Cardassian, she was a nark, she was at the very least sleeping with Michael Jonas, maybe others, she was a cop working against hm for the cardassians, she was a traitor working against him for the kazon, she stole his sperm, she stole his transporter tech, then had his baby, she accused him of rape, tied him to a chair and had her new lover beat him to prove who had the larger penis (she did by the way, metaphorical or otherwise.), then after he'd accepted the kid, she made sure it wasn't his after the fact with willpower and spite alone, then just for one final laugh she decided to let Tom kill her rather allow the two of them to have some closure leaving the sad little Indian confused and befuddled about why his heart had been shredded by a monster for no good reason at all.

No wonder it took him seven years to sack up and get back in the game.

Maybe there was a missing scene in Shattered where he adressed his feelings while she was planning to kill him and take his ship?

 

[exodus]

Second, if Chakotay is going to be viewed as shallow. Hoping from one woman to another simply due to curiousity and youth, why would Chakotay ever stay with Janeway? She would be just a notch on his bed post too.

Again you're looking at it with 21st century morals.

I was going by the scenario you set up. You stated that men would be attracked to the hot young blonde but then so tire of her and move on to the next thing. 24th century morals says he wouldn't break Seven's heart just because Janeway was now free.

 

[kimc]

No one thinks that Chakotay needed a break from women in general after the super betrayalS from that lover of his Seska he had right at the beginning?

I think Guy has a point. Yes, I'm scared too.

 

[exodus]

Why would Janeway rub it in Chakotay's face like that about her sexual romps with someone else besides him, if she held any interest in him? Doesn't anyone see that as cruel?

I saw it as an opportunity for him to speak up and state what he wanted - especially if it was a ploy to make him jealous. However, I can't see Janeway engaging in those types of games (she's not that cruel) so the assumption that they have a mutual understanding holds.

Besides, when he said "we all do it" she hardly seemed surprised!

She did too me the way she kinda pulled back and raised an eyebrow.

 

[kimc]

Second, if Chakotay is going to be viewed as shallow. Hoping from one woman to another simply due to curiousity and youth, why would Chakotay ever stay with Janeway? She would be just a notch on his bed post too.

Again you're looking at it with 21st century morals.

I was going by the scenario you set up. You stated that men would be attracked to the hot young blonde but then so tire of her and move on to the next thing. 24th century morals says he wouldn't break Seven's heart just because Janeway was now free.

I think you need to re-reread what I've posted. Thanks.

 

[exodus]

Again you're looking at it with 21st century morals.

I was going by the scenario you set up. You stated that men would be attracked to the hot young blonde but then so tire of her and move on to the next thing. 24th century morals says he wouldn't break Seven's heart just because Janeway was now free.

I think you need to re-reread what I've posted. Thanks.

I did, this was your quote:
As for Chakotay, sure no healthy male is going to turn down a young blonde when he's not in a serious relationship but after his curiousity is satisfied in that area what's to stop him from satisfying it in another.

A quote you yourself admitted sounded "sleazy".

 

[Guy Gardener]

Back when I was a child at university, walking through the main street on the way to lunch, I was so caught off guard when a friend, a mate, a buddy, a hot young blonde, asked me if I wanted to go out with her that I accidentally replied honestly...

"Why?"

She was stunned, but fortunately her friend a tiny shouty Asian with a boys haircut, who I did like that way but didn't do anything about, responded appropriately with both verbiage and what seemed to be dance: "What do you mean WHY!? Why?! Why? You say WHY!? She's a beautiful vibrant woman and you say WHY? Why, she's obviously insane that's why?"

Things just spiralled out of control from there.

No one is beautiful enough to get a free pass no matter that they tell you about the bubble on 30 Rock.

 

[kimc]

I was going by the scenario you set up. You stated that men would be attracked to the hot young blonde but then so tire of her and move on to the next thing. 24th century morals says he wouldn't break Seven's heart just because Janeway was now free.

I think you need to re-reread what I've posted. Thanks.

I did, this was your quote:
As for Chakotay, sure no healthy male is going to turn down a young blonde when he's not in a serious relationship but after his curiousity is satisfied in that area what's to stop him from satisfying it in another.

A quote you yourself admitted sounded "sleazy".

Sleazy according to our 21st century standards which are the standards you are applying here. My point which you seem to be glossing over for some purpose of your own is that we're not talking 21st century here.

Whatever. We're done.

 

[exodus]

I think you need to re-reread what I've posted. Thanks.

I did, this was your quote:
As for Chakotay, sure no healthy male is going to turn down a young blonde when he's not in a serious relationship but after his curiousity is satisfied in that area what's to stop him from satisfying it in another.

A quote you yourself admitted sounded "sleazy".

Sleazy according to our 21st century standards which are the standards you are applying here. My point which you seem to be glossing over for some purpose of your own is that we're not talking 21st century here.

Whatever. We're done.

Then please don't reply if you're going to act this way every time we debate.

Thanks.

 

[AuntKate]

Yep! You see that in fanfics a lot, poor rejected Chakotay, but in fact Janeway never actually turned him down in any episode - it was never even addressed, hence the frustration from many fans at the lack of resolution. It might have been a bit better if they had had that conversation at some point.

Seriously, you mean calling him "good friend" and creating a hologram for romantic interest and then asking Chakotay for sexual advice about it wasn't a big enough clue?

Why would Janeway rub it in Chakotay's face like that about her sexual romps with someone else besides him, if she held any interest in him? Doesn't anyone see that as cruel?

I do.

Her talking about Michael to Chakotay was not any crueler than his involvement with the "free" Borg Riley or with Kellen in "Unforgettable." If two adults decide to mutually let an attraction drop, then they should be adult enough to deal with the other person's dalliances elsewhere--especially if they are really good friends.