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Ok I'll say it- I like the DSC Klingons

That would be right, if the Borg weren't retconned to have the First Contact Design even before Q Who in Dark Frontier.

You're assuming Borg design must be linear, uniform and irreversible. It's entirely plausible the Borg use different physical designs for different tasks/ships/regions or that they might experiment with new designs only to decide to return to an older design that had been judged more efficient after some time period. Or that some designs work better for host species x and other designs work better for host species y. At the end of the day, it simply comes down to the fact that the borg have the resources to change the appearance of masses of drones in a very short time and have plenty of different plausible reasons for choosing to do so, so complaining that they look different is nonsensical. The Klingons, of course, are a purely biological species which shouldn't have massive outward changes in short periods of time (especially since Klingons are very long lived), so it's understandable that people have more trouble accepting it ( even though it really shouldn't be approached from a biological perspective in the first place - it's just a story/visual choice).
 
Does anyone think they might all be wearing masks and when they take them off they look like the more established looking Klingons we all knew and loved. You could even say the masks are made out of Hurq flesh from many years ago. That sounds like a kind nasty ritual they might be into.

Jason
 
Hate the look of the Klingons because all those prosthetics clearly hampers the actors performance greatly. Not only they have all the facial expressions of Darth Vader but also the speech impediment of Marlon Brando’s Don Corleone*.

* (Unless that combination was exactly what the producers were aiming for. In that case congrats.)
 
I have no problem with the new Klingons the old ones now are just hokey and not menacing at all.
 
0DuRP8T.jpg


I'm still undecided on the Klingons - they have potential as long as they don't become a one-note culture that universally buys into Kahless, and I hope actually displays the organizational principles a spacefaring state would need. They are an Empire after all. On the one hand I was really really entertained, and their dialogue about Kahless made perfect sense in Star Trek context, but on the other hand there was seemingly absolutely no attention paid to the secular military TOS-era aspects of their culture - which worries me in its absence, since I would like the two to fit. Are they being turned into a full-on religious state? I'm a bit wary of them being turned from a 1940s military dictatorship with rational objectives into something more like a combination of part Tolkien Ranger of Ithilien lighting the beacon of Amon Din to call the heroes of the world, and part jihadist terrorist lighting the beacon of xenophobia to call the faithful to holy war. It could work, since Kahless is their Aragorn "just-king" figure, but it could also end up being as bad as the living stereotype they became in DS9.

In David Mack's "In the Name of Honor", it's implied that beneath the dishonorable imperialism and fanaticism of TOS era Klingons, there was a fundamentally good message in Kahless's teachings, it's just been lost, and the morally decent Klingons reclaim this legacy around The Undiscovered Country, eventually leading to peace with the Federation.

The reason I'm cautious about this?

It raises questions about how much respect Star Trek should pay to warrior cultures, which on the surface seem honorable, often proclaiming ideals of universal justice, but in reality have rarely been so. Hollywood, being a couple of centuries removed from Knights and Castles, sometimes have a romanticized view of their moral goodness or justice, because of literature from the 19th century that glorified them - but the reality of actually living in such a culture was probably not fellowships vanquishing evil every day - but rather people being forced into conformity through fear; hiding abuse, slavery, lacking choice, suffering utter lack of accountability - the Anglo-Saxons enslaved 10% of their own population in the time when Beowulf was written - the Central Asian kingdoms were full of slaves captured from neighboring infidel cultures, sold into harems. Were they not living up to their ideals? Perhaps. Or perhaps the ideals needed examination. This was what I think was behind Ezri's famous line to Worf in DS9 about how perhaps the Klingon Empire wasn't worth saving. I don't know the answer.

I'm hoping Discovery will be nuanced, and explore all this and more. Actually their portrayal has been nuanced so far, and we haven't seen enough to judge - the show could go anywhere - and it's exciting.

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In terms of visuals, I think a D7 style Klingon battlecruiser or two among that big fleet, or a bit of a beard/goatee/hair on one or two of the Klingons, would have served to make the transition less jarring for fans.

What struck me about the makeup when we first saw it in images, was that the makeup seems to be a full head mask, it looks like it fits over their head. In the past however, Star Trek deliberatly only used to apply makeup in sections to the areas of the face that didn't effect the actor's ability to emote - famous example being the Cardassians, who look very alien, but the makeup does not obscure the actor at all (think it may have won awards). The Into Darkness makeup was really good in this respect actually, and I think it would have been ideal for updated Klingons.

Zwjuy6p.jpg


xqWW8NE.jpg


I don't know if audiences will find the Discovery Klingons more alien looking and modern. I would have thought their behavior was more important than how they looked, but maybe skeptical people looking at promo images will see them as cool and more alien looking than other shows. I would hate for them to just re-design, say, the Cardassians, along similar lines, making them look far more lizard like or something, when they are fine as they are. But lets wait to see how Kol's actor looks in the makeup, and if they introduce other varieties of Klingon.
 
You're assuming Borg design must be linear, uniform and irreversible. It's entirely plausible the Borg use different physical designs for different tasks/ships/regions or that they might experiment with new designs only to decide to return to an older design that had been judged more efficient after some time period. Or that some designs work better for host species x and other designs work better for host species y. At the end of the day, it simply comes down to the fact that the borg have the resources to change the appearance of masses of drones in a very short time and have plenty of different plausible reasons for choosing to do so, so complaining that they look different is nonsensical. The Klingons, of course, are a purely biological species which shouldn't have massive outward changes in short periods of time (especially since Klingons are very long lived), so it's understandable that people have more trouble accepting it ( even though it really shouldn't be approached from a biological perspective in the first place - it's just a story/visual choice).
Locutus has completely different makeup and armour in First Contact compared with BoBW. It's a retcon. We're supposed to think they always looked like that, you just couldn't see the details on the small screen.

Unless Locutus changed his outfit and developed those thread veins just for his meeting with the Borg Queen, then changed back and reapplied the white makeup for the rest of the episode.
 
First, they don't all look alike.

They rarely did in TOS or spinoffs either. Depends on what one is looking for?

People saying they don't look like Klingons need to keep in mind the variance we have seen between Klingons WITHIN Discovery.

People assumed this show is a prequel to the prime universe, not Kelvin. A lot was changed between that initial statement, add in the new Klingon look, and now so it seems a lot easier to buy into STD being in the Kelvin universe.

I believe the makeup people are trying to give Klingons the same range of features Humans have and that's pretty awesome, if daunting from a budget standpoint.

Agreed. Prosthetics have improved a lot since the 1990s and people were floored back then.

Second, as for their supposed lack of honor, actual honor among Klingons seems to be more of a guideline than a thing they actually live by. Worf and Martok? Yes, very honorable men.

Gowron? Lursa and B'Etor? Duras?

TOS/et al had almost one-dimensional stereotypes, though the occasional individual would be corrupt or different (but for similar underlying reasons.) Kelvin's realm allows changes because it is a parallel /different timeline.

Also, the whole "reuniting the 24 houses" and other comments leads me to believe we are witnessing a rebirth of the Klingon "empire", in short, a major cultural change within Klingon culture.

I like all this and have high hopes for where it goes from here.

Which we never saw in prime-Kirk's era. TNG's edition happened in one way. DSC's will take a different one. The ultimate question is, will their arc work?

I'm waiting out for more reviews before subscribing. What I saw of the premiere was so-so, but not as bad as how some online have been ripping it. I'd rather sit through commercials of a cooking show whose next episode involves making spoonable scrambled eggs and for eggs themselves because they're so incredible and indelible. :D (Just don't mind the cholesterol :p )
 
Hate the look of the Klingons because all those prosthetics clearly hampers the actors performance greatly. Not only they have all the facial expressions of Darth Vader but also the speech impediment of Marlon Brando’s Don Corleone*.

* (Unless that combination was exactly what the producers were aiming for. In that case congrats.)
I want a Klingon Godfather now.
TOS/et al had almost one-dimensional stereotypes, though the occasional individual would be corrupt or different (but for similar underlying reasons.) Kelvin's realm allows changes because it is a parallel /different timeline.
Exactly. The "warrior culture" monlithic stereotype is old and fatiguing. I would rather have something different with the Klingons and it to be mediocre, than the same old same old tired cliches about honor. Honor means different things to different cultures. Please see the Romans and their encounters with the Celts.
 
0DuRP8T.jpg


I'm still undecided on the Klingons - they have potential as long as they don't become a one-note culture that universally buys into Kahless, and I hope actually displays the organizational principles a spacefaring state would need. They are an Empire after all. On the one hand I was really really entertained, and their dialogue about Kahless made perfect sense in Star Trek context, but on the other hand there was seemingly absolutely no attention paid to the secular military TOS-era aspects of their culture - which worries me in its absence, since I would like the two to fit. Are they being turned into a full-on religious state? I'm a bit wary of them being turned from a 1940s military dictatorship with rational objectives into something more like a combination of part Tolkien Ranger of Ithilien lighting the beacon of Amon Din to call the heroes of the world, and part jihadist terrorist lighting the beacon of xenophobia to call the faithful to holy war. It could work, since Kahless is their Aragorn "just-king" figure, but it could also end up being as bad as the living stereotype they became in DS9.

In David Mack's "In the Name of Honor", it's implied that beneath the dishonorable imperialism and fanaticism of TOS era Klingons, there was a fundamentally good message in Kahless's teachings, it's just been lost, and the morally decent Klingons reclaim this legacy around The Undiscovered Country, eventually leading to peace with the Federation.

The reason I'm cautious about this?

It raises questions about how much respect Star Trek should pay to warrior cultures, which on the surface seem honorable, often proclaiming ideals of universal justice, but in reality have rarely been so. Hollywood, being a couple of centuries removed from Knights and Castles, sometimes have a romanticized view of their moral goodness or justice, because of literature from the 19th century that glorified them - but the reality of actually living in such a culture was probably not fellowships vanquishing evil every day - but rather people being forced into conformity through fear; hiding abuse, slavery, lacking choice, suffering utter lack of accountability - the Anglo-Saxons enslaved 10% of their own population in the time when Beowulf was written - the Central Asian kingdoms were full of slaves captured from neighboring infidel cultures, sold into harems. Were they not living up to their ideals? Perhaps. Or perhaps the ideals needed examination. This was what I think was behind Ezri's famous line to Worf in DS9 about how perhaps the Klingon Empire wasn't worth saving. I don't know the answer.

I'm hoping Discovery will be nuanced, and explore all this and more. Actually their portrayal has been nuanced so far, and we haven't seen enough to judge - the show could go anywhere - and it's exciting.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

In terms of visuals, I think a D7 style Klingon battlecruiser or two among that big fleet, or a bit of a beard/goatee/hair on one or two of the Klingons, would have served to make the transition less jarring for fans.

What struck me about the makeup when we first saw it in images, was that the makeup seems to be a full head mask, it looks like it fits over their head. In the past however, Star Trek deliberatly only used to apply makeup in sections to the areas of the face that didn't effect the actor's ability to emote - famous example being the Cardassians, who look very alien, but the makeup does not obscure the actor at all (think it may have won awards). The Into Darkness makeup was really good in this respect actually, and I think it would have been ideal for updated Klingons.

Zwjuy6p.jpg


xqWW8NE.jpg


I don't know if audiences will find the Discovery Klingons more alien looking and modern. I would have thought their behavior was more important than how they looked, but maybe skeptical people looking at promo images will see them as cool and more alien looking than other shows. I would hate for them to just re-design, say, the Cardassians, along similar lines, making them look far more lizard like or something, when they are fine as they are. But lets wait to see how Kol's actor looks in the makeup, and if they introduce other varieties of Klingon.

That's actually a pretty cool video. Upon my re-watch...that's pretty much what I got out of it as well.
 
Locutus has completely different makeup and armour in First Contact compared with BoBW. It's a retcon. We're supposed to think they always looked like that, you just couldn't see the details on the small screen.

Unless Locutus changed his outfit and developed those thread veins just for his meeting with the Borg Queen, then changed back and reapplied the white makeup for the rest of the episode.

He made an effort on their first date, can't really fault him for that....
 
There's something to be said for allowing the new show to cast off the trappings of the old canon. Do all Klingons need to look and act like space-faring biker brutes? Absolutely not. Should they at least reasonably be recognizable as the same species? I'd say yes. If no one had called these aliens Klingons outright, if they had never called themselves such, would anyone in the audience have assumed they were? I would say no. The reboot films managed to create a new Klingon design that is still recognizably Klingon while being significantly different from anything we had seen before. These, however, are Klingons in name only. We can grumble about the mumbling (have they never heard of ADR?) and the problems with the practicality of the makeup, but the real problem here is that they're pissing on our leg and telling us to watch out for the rain.
 
Neutral on the design of the Klingons but I really did enjoy the intrigue between the houses. Am very curious if House Duras is around back then.

It is. The House of Duras existed as early as 2153 when the 22nd century Duras battled Archer and Enterprise NX-01 and was ordered by the Klingon High Council to destroy Enterprise before it successfully entered the Delphic Expanse. The Duras of that century had the same head ridges and behaved just as dickish towards those he viewed as adversaries.
 
I'm torn with this because on one hand I think the ship design, production design, general aesthetic we saw in the first episodes was absolutely GORGEOUS - some of the most beautiful design I have seen on TV ever. I even think that extends to the look of the Klingons and their outfits. However, it is inescapable that the actors were struggling to speak or emote. More distracting than that, the torturously slow pace of the dialogue with all this pauses...I know we have seen Klingons speak in a kind of 'barky' way before but this was just too extreme. Not sure if it was an artistic choice by the directors to make them seem more alien? Either way it just made the scenes feel a little too awkward for my taste, although I am definitely into what is going on with them plot wise.
I don't think that digital effects would have been the answer cause then they would have just been completely unrealistic looking, since even mocie budget can't convince me of the reality of a totally digital creature yet. TV budget VFX, even as incredible as the Discovery tram clearly are with the space shota etc, certainly couldn't make a whole cast of digital Klingons work out.
But as nice as the Klingon prosthetics might be in theory, in practice they obviously took it just a step too far really there is no need for them to be that made up. They could have toned it down just a bit foe the actors' sakes and they still would have had different and alien looking Klingons. As mentioned, this was spectacularly pulled off with th Cardassians!
But I am hoping I can buy the characters a bit more as we go along and maybe we get some more fluent, naturalistic scenes between Klingons or, at the very least, I just get used to the he stiff alieness and embrace it.
 
In one fan publication in the past--we did hear about "The old Kings" That was supposed to be the TMP-onwards imperial Klingons--but would be a perfect explanation for these guys.
 
Is Kol the one with the red streaks in his face?
I don't care for that at all, it looks silly.

Other than the speaking problems, some of the others look good.
 
The Klingon's sound like babies when they speak in this series compared to sounding like men in every other series
 
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