Ok I'll say it- I like the DSC Klingons

[DarKush]

^
I agree with you about the DIS Klingons being a subculture or subspecies of Klingons. I've heard the suggestion that the DIS Klingons are augmented Klingons, an attempt to restore Klingon ridges and it went awry or something.

Personally I wish it had been the Hur'q, or Klingon-Hur'q hybrids. It would explain the physical differences along with ships, technology, etc.

 

[Mudd]

STD Klingons signify shift toward racism.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Not sure if

STD Klingons signify shift toward racism.

The Kingons have always possessed the characteristics mentioned in that article. The blackface/Fu Manchu make up of the 60's, the ridges of the 80s and the wilder and wilder hair of the 90s all invoke the other/alien/primitive the article attributes to Discovery's Klingons. Be it Vikings, Russians, Mongols or Bikers Trek has always used Western fears as the basis for the Klingons.

 

[Kor]

... Klingons don't eat their defeated opponents.
...

Right.

Just their raw, warm, bloody hearts, as plenty of TNG-era Klingons boasted about.

Kor

 

[Longinus]

STD Klingons signify shift toward racism.

It looks really worrying. And no, it is not same as before, as unfortunate some of those 60's make up choices may seem today. There usually was something about how ultimately the Klingons were like us, they were not just monsters. Maybe we will still get to that part in Discovery, I really hope that we do. But thus far it doesn't look great.

And yes, DIS Klingons do look like 19th century racist caricatures with their exaggerated lips, noses an sharp teeth. Combined with Egyptian/Arabic style, religious fundamentalism and (pseudo) cannibalism the whole package is pretty damn chilling. Now, I really don't think they intentionally did this, though how no one noticed is rather staggering mystery. Perhaps all that talk about Klingons being like Trump supporters (and they kinda are, as all hateful fanatics are ultimately alike) was intentional misdirection once they realised what they had created.

 

[Unimatrix Q]

They aren't Klingons. Not in any recognizable sense. Klingons don't torture defenseless captives. Klingons don't take sex slaves. Klingons don't eat their defeated opponents.

I'm all for fleshing out the Klingons to give them more diversity as a species, but this is completely unrealistic. Exactly none of the Klingons we've seen on screen act anything like any other Klingons we've ever seen. Why didn't the writers just give them a different name and make them a new species?

Some fans tend to forget or to ignore things that don't match their view of canon.

KORRIS: Brother, I knew you would come. (Worf climbs the ladder) Now I, we have a chance. I could not do it alone, but I would rather die here, than let the traitors of Kling pick the meat from my bones. With you it will work.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Perhaps all that talk about Klingons being like Trump supporters (and they kinda are, as all hateful fanatics are ultimately alike) was intentional misdirection once they realised what they had created.

I know it's kind of unavoidable to get into political talk given the content of the article, but let's try to avoid making blanket statements like that. That kind of talk belongs more in the Misc. or TNZ forums.

 

[Longinus]

^ Noted.

Frankly, I don't mind the cannibalism, per se. It's just that way it was presented in DIS was to make the Klingons look unlikable.

 

[Mudd]

^ Noted.

Frankly, I don't mind the cannibalism, per se. It's just that way it was presented in DIS was to make the Klingons look unlikable.

Exactly so - it was a "the enemy are slathering soulless beasts" moment.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

STD Klingons signify shift toward racism.

This article is kind of all over the place, this kinda stuck out to me though

"I wonder what Star Trek’s creator Gene Roddenberry would have felt about this easy dismissal of the ideals of peaceful inter-species cooperation?"

Yeah, doesn't seem like TOS klingons presented a different scenario at all. I assume Gene would feel similarly as he did to the TOS klingons.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

"I wonder what Star Trek’s creator Gene Roddenberry would have felt about this easy dismissal of the ideals of peaceful inter-species cooperation?"

Roddenberry was largely involved in the conception of the Ferengi in Season 1 of TNG to serve as a replacement for the Klingons as the primary adversary species (which obviously didn't come to pass) now that the Klingons were Federation allies. His vision for them was that they had hideous misshapen heads and pointy teeth that gave the actors difficulty emoting and speaking (sound familiar?), that they ate their rivals, and that they were an extremist monoculture, except instead of honor and nationalism they were devoted to fanatical greed above all else. Oh, and because Roddenberry was a sex-obsessed perv, they were originally supposed to have giant dicks that required massive outsized codpieces despite their tiny stature. So I don't think Roddenberry would have much of a leg to stand on where it comes to these modern Klingons, seeing as how they have so much in common with his conception of the Ferengi, minus the giant schwantz.

Also, Gene's vision sucks.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

So I don't think Roddenberry would have much of a leg to stand on where it comes to these modern Klingons,

that was the crux of my point only referenced more solely on TOS.

here were talking how one dimensional the klingons are... there that article is talking how one dimensional the klingons are while asking what gene would think about todays klingons..


my statement was a snarky one

 

[AndorianAle]

Question for your opinions. Was T'Kuvma a fortune teller, a story teller, a racist, did he have knowledge of the future, or will we not learn until future episodes?

Edit: So Burnham was being taught Vulcan education before her parents died, survived the attack, then continued that same education?

 

[GeekUSACarl]

Question for your opinions. Was T'Kuvma a fortune teller, a story teller, a racist, did he have knowledge of the future, or will we not learn until future episodes?

Tacoma was a racist in the truest sense of the word, as is Lorca.

The way we accept racism today is a bit of a misnomer. Blacks and Whites aren't a race, they are an ethnic group.

Humans and Klingons are a race. Lorca hates Klingons, Tacoma hate's humans, so easily racist.

Aside from that I think Tacoma was just a religious fanatic, maybe half a step shy from being a megalomaniac. I don't think he was anything greater like a fortune teller or prophet of any sort with any future knowledge.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

When was it said that Lorca actually hates Klingons?

True, he's wanting to win the war at all costs. But does that mean he literally hates the enemy?

 

[AndorianAle]

Aside from that I think Tacoma was just a religious fanatic, maybe half a step shy from being a megalomaniac. I don't think he was anything greater like a fortune teller or prophet of any sort with any future knowledge.

I just rewatched the pilot and thought maybe he had knowledge of the future, since he seemed to know what would happen, exactly. EDIT: So he was a Klingon "Trump" at the time. I'm sure that'll turn out great.

 

[GeekUSACarl]

I just rewatched the pilot and thought maybe he had knowledge of the future, since he seemed to know what would happen, exactly. So he was a Klingon "Trump" at the time. I'm sure that'll turn out great.

Like every fanatic and presidential candidate in history.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

that was the crux of my point only referenced more solely on TOS.

here were talking how one dimensional the klingons are... there that article is talking how one dimensional the klingons are while asking what gene would think about todays klingons..


my statement was a snarky one

I was agreeing with you.

 

[zar]

They aren't Klingons. Not in any recognizable sense. Klingons don't torture defenseless captives. Klingons don't take sex slaves. Klingons don't eat their defeated opponents.

STD Klingons signify shift toward racism.

Yeah, completely unrecognizable. Whatever happened to the TOS "Cold War Soviets mixed with a bit of Japanese from World War II"? Where did they come up wi...wait...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

Japanese imperial forces employed widespread use of torture on prisoners, usually in an effort to gather military intelligence quickly.[98] Tortured prisoners were often later executed.
...
Comfort women were women and girls forced into sexual slavery by the Imperial Japanese Army in occupied territories before and during World War II.[1][2][3]
...
Perhaps the most senior officer convicted of cannibalism was Lt Gen. Yoshio Tachibana (立花芳夫,Tachibana Yoshio), who with 11 other Japanese personnel was tried in August 1946 in relation to the execution of U.S. Navy airmen, and the cannibalism of at least one of them, during August 1944, on Chichi Jima, in the Bonin Islands.

I wonder, is this a coincidence? In any case, all of these traits are already established Klingon behavior. Also, none of this is new either:

...the Klingons participate in self-harm, believe in rebirth in flames, and have a physical appearance that has extended their exo-skeleton

And the Klingons have always been the "other" that was feared, even when they were our friends. That Klingon lawyer built a whole case exploiting that fact:

CH'POK: Tell me, Commander, what was the final order Sompek gave to his men once they had conquered the city of Tong Vey?
DAX: He told them to burn the city to the ground and to kill everyone in it.
CH'POK: Everyone? Not just the soldiers, but the people of the town too? Civilians? Women? Children?
DAX: Yes.
CH'POK: Now, Commander, when Mister Worf runs this programme, does he give the final order to destroy the city and kill all of the inhabitants?
DAX: Yes.
CH'POK: Of course he does. Because he is a Klingon warrior. He doesn't have the same moral code as a Starfleet officer. He is one of us. A killer, a predator among sheep.

That article starts and ends with the fact that the Klingons seem evil, and misses the point. They are supposed to. Not to "dismiss the ideals" of Star Trek, but to demonstrate them. They are supposed to look like and be judged as monsters, just like the tardigrade. They are supposed to be the scary "other". The showrunners have literally said so months ago:

I feel like one of the themes we are exploring is universal and is a lesson I feel like as human beings we have to learn over and over again – is you think you know ‘the other,’ but you really don’t.
- Gretchen Berg

And I think when people look at the Klingons – I frankly love what they represent. Not in terms necessarily of all the messaging, but in terms of learning about them and learning why they are who they are and making sure they aren’t just the enemy.
- Aaron Harberts

This is basically the whole point of season 1.

 

[cooleddie74]

When was it said that Lorca actually hates Klingons?

True, he's wanting to win the war at all costs. But does that mean he literally hates the enemy?

That's not the impression I'm getting thus far. He wants to win the war and defeat the Klingon Empire but I have yet to hear him speak any lines that indicate he's a terrible anti-Klingon racist who wants to destroy them as a species. To date he's showed no more nor any less vitriol towards the Klingon Empire than James Kirk will in the coming decades.