Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Continuing Arc
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Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
^^
Ah, okay. I guess I'll see that when I go around again... but I imagine it won't be at least two years before that happens. Eleven novels and six 22 episode seasons worth of material (counting Crusade and the movies) is a big time investment.
^^
Ah, okay. I guess I'll see that when I go around again... but I imagine it won't be at least two years before that happens. Eleven novels and six 22 episode seasons worth of material (counting Crusade and the movies) is a big time investment.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Sorry for my rather late reply. Well i actually just finished with Sleeping in Light yesterday (that episode gets to me every time).
Well i do think that season 5 picks up the pace about halfway in. And i think the season presents some of my favourite moments.
One of my favourite episodes of any TV show is "The Fall of Centauri Prime" and i am not sure that, that particular episode would have worked as well, if season 5 did not take its time to build towards it. I found myself crying when Londo pondered his last five years before walking alone to his inauguration (not sure i spelled that right).
I also love that season five takes its time with the goodbyes. Nothing is rushed and everything quietly falls into place in "Objects in Motion" and "Objects at Rest".
I guess if i had to sum season five in one word it would be: Poetic.
Hope you enjoy the rest of season five and i will join in on the discussion on the episodes as you watch them.
Hirogen Alpha said:
Do you have any comments for the rest of the season? Feel free to share them (Since I've already seen everything before, no worries about spoilers here).
Sorry for my rather late reply. Well i actually just finished with Sleeping in Light yesterday (that episode gets to me every time).
Well i do think that season 5 picks up the pace about halfway in. And i think the season presents some of my favourite moments.
One of my favourite episodes of any TV show is "The Fall of Centauri Prime" and i am not sure that, that particular episode would have worked as well, if season 5 did not take its time to build towards it. I found myself crying when Londo pondered his last five years before walking alone to his inauguration (not sure i spelled that right).
I also love that season five takes its time with the goodbyes. Nothing is rushed and everything quietly falls into place in "Objects in Motion" and "Objects at Rest".
I guess if i had to sum season five in one word it would be: Poetic.
Hope you enjoy the rest of season five and i will join in on the discussion on the episodes as you watch them.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
I have the annotated script by Neil Gaiman, and he states that in the original draft he sent in, he just asked JMS to put in something prophetic.
I have the annotated script by Neil Gaiman, and he states that in the original draft he sent in, he just asked JMS to put in something prophetic.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
"Movements of Fire and Shadow"
Despite a couple of reservations, I'm giving this episode the highest marks I can. Season five here is really incomparable to what it was during its first dozen or so episodes. Everything comes together for Sheridan and those close to him, but it happens far too late. Centauri Prime begins to fall.
And there's a nice nod to the novel "The Shadow Within" here when Lyta mentions the Shadow Tech they find on the Drazi Homeworld was discovered by the PsiCorp some years ago.
Now... my reservations:
(1) Sheridan should remember his visit to the future in War Without End. He either doesn't, or doesn't think how what's happening on Centauri Prime could be related, either of which I think is a mistake.
(2) Lyta has become a total bitch. I don't like the way here character has developed (as I previously wrote) and she's pretty bad here (though she doesn't do anything as stupid as she does in Objects in Motion).
(3) The slow-motion and excessive (and cheesy looking) zooms at the end of the episode help make what should be a great moment into one that's just good.
Grade: A+
I totally had a question to ask about this episode, but now I forget. Maybe I'll remember later. Five to go (And then River of Souls, Legend of the Rangers, and Call To Arms/Crusade). I watched Thirdspace again last weekend. I still think its classic Babylon 5, though with its flaws, and I'm busy reading "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" which is a GREAT read. Easily an A+ by the first 150 pages. I also started the techno-mage trilogy, but the characters were so alien to me that I decided to put it down until after Crusade 30 pages in.
"Movements of Fire and Shadow"
Despite a couple of reservations, I'm giving this episode the highest marks I can. Season five here is really incomparable to what it was during its first dozen or so episodes. Everything comes together for Sheridan and those close to him, but it happens far too late. Centauri Prime begins to fall.
And there's a nice nod to the novel "The Shadow Within" here when Lyta mentions the Shadow Tech they find on the Drazi Homeworld was discovered by the PsiCorp some years ago.
Now... my reservations:
(1) Sheridan should remember his visit to the future in War Without End. He either doesn't, or doesn't think how what's happening on Centauri Prime could be related, either of which I think is a mistake.
(2) Lyta has become a total bitch. I don't like the way here character has developed (as I previously wrote) and she's pretty bad here (though she doesn't do anything as stupid as she does in Objects in Motion).
(3) The slow-motion and excessive (and cheesy looking) zooms at the end of the episode help make what should be a great moment into one that's just good.
Grade: A+
I totally had a question to ask about this episode, but now I forget. Maybe I'll remember later. Five to go (And then River of Souls, Legend of the Rangers, and Call To Arms/Crusade). I watched Thirdspace again last weekend. I still think its classic Babylon 5, though with its flaws, and I'm busy reading "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" which is a GREAT read. Easily an A+ by the first 150 pages. I also started the techno-mage trilogy, but the characters were so alien to me that I decided to put it down until after Crusade 30 pages in.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
"The Fall of Centauri Prime"
Enough has been said about this episode that I don't need to offer any more platitudes--hell, a whole thread was devoted to it not too long back. Suffice it to say, I think this is one of the best episodes of the series and this season. I can't think of any flaws right now, except perhaps the keeper CGI (and the mastering problems which make it look worse), but that's more of a gripe with the DVDs than the episode. The moment where Londo walks to his coronation, alone, with the bells sounding is tragedy at its best. I only wish the montage right before had been a little longer--there are seasons from the first two seasons, and then they skip to one from not too long ago in season five and then Londo's death vision. But, I'm sure that was do to time more than anything else.
Grade: A+
"The Fall of Centauri Prime"
Enough has been said about this episode that I don't need to offer any more platitudes--hell, a whole thread was devoted to it not too long back. Suffice it to say, I think this is one of the best episodes of the series and this season. I can't think of any flaws right now, except perhaps the keeper CGI (and the mastering problems which make it look worse), but that's more of a gripe with the DVDs than the episode. The moment where Londo walks to his coronation, alone, with the bells sounding is tragedy at its best. I only wish the montage right before had been a little longer--there are seasons from the first two seasons, and then they skip to one from not too long ago in season five and then Londo's death vision. But, I'm sure that was do to time more than anything else.
Grade: A+
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
"The Wheel of Fire"
Anything would be disappointing after the previous two episodes. The first time I saw season five, I was struck by an incredible feeling of "Wait--there's four more episodes after this?" when I finished "The Fall of Centauri Prime." I'm still struck by that feeling. There's something that feels incredibly wrong laughing at G'Kar's woes during the episode's teaser. We just saw the Londo's great fall, and now we're stuck with this? Almost everything in this episode strikes me this way--and that's not to say that it's bad--some of it is really, really great stuff. It just feels like it should have come before this--before the previous two episodes.
Lochley's confrontation with Garibaldi is fantastic--it finally gives depth to the Zoe scenes from "Day of the Dead" earlier in the season. But there are only two episodes left for Lochley after this (ignoring the spin-offs and movies). Shouldn't this have come earlier. In a way, the Garibaldi in the previous two episodes seemed like he was completely different than the Garibaldi seen before or after. He's totally functional there, but here he's a total mess. I suppose that's not out of the realm of possibility with alcoholics.
What is out of the realm of possibility are two things. First, that Sheridan let this slide for so long. He doesn't strike me as the type who would let this sit for two whole months, especially with things heating up over the Centauri at the same time. Secondly, I'm dumbfounded that Garibaldi doesn't face stricter consequences. His friends let him off, when he should be facing court martial or whatever the equivalent is for his position. His drinking probably caused the Centauri War to escalate like it did a few episodes ago, but he hasn't faced any consequences with that.
Finally, there's the question of Lyta. I've been pretty vocal in my disappointment over her character's development after the Shadow War (and, more dramatically, in season five). It's not that I don't buy the way she reacts to the things that happen around her (well, except for Byron, but I would have bought that if the writing/acting was there). It's that I don't buy how everyone else treats her. When Franklin and Sheridan discuss why she's pissed, their actions never come up once. They blame the Vorlons, the Psi Corp, the Death of Byron--but never themselves. And after everything Lyta has done for them--saved them from total disaster from Earth in season two by exposing Talia, saved them from total disaster in the Shadow War in season three, and saved them from total disaster from Earth again in season four--they put her in smaller quarters (forcing her back to the Psi Corp) and ignore her wants and needs (and her people's wants and needs) which go against everything the Alliance is supposed to stand for. Apparently, we are one... except for telepaths. So much for progress. It’s no wonder she goes off the deep end. I’ve been reading To Dream in the City of Sorrows this past week (it’s fantastic) and it’s become pretty clear through Sakai’s portions of the book that there are plenty of dead worlds lying out there, some of them worthless. Perfect sites for a telepath colony—instead, we’re just escalating to a telepath war that we’ll probably never get to see. The telepaths are one of the most interesting things in the Babylon 5 universe, but ultimately, they’re a missed opportunity.
Still, with all my bitching, the scene where Lyta is taken down is fantastic. Still, the Garibaldi/Lyta scenes aren’t, if simply because they’re all set-up for some pay-off that we haven’t arrived at yet (and might never arrive at), beyond certain parts of the third Psi-Corp book.
Delenn is pregnant in this episode, which is a nice progression of the Sheridan/Delenn storyline—I just wish Sheridan wasn’t so dumbfounded. Again, he ignores what he learned in War Without End (The Legions of Fire confirm that he remembers what happened in his flash forwards), that he has a son named David with Delenn. I understand that he is surprised, but after a moment I expected him to realize that it was inevitable. He doesn’t. At least this lapse of memory won’t have such serious consequences as forgetting about the Shadow’s servants running amuck on Centauri Prime and making Londo and his people miserable.
And, yes, after all that wild complaining, I still liked the episode. I just didn’t love it. I love Sleeping in Light (A+ without even viewing it again), but the next two... I don't know. I wonder if they'll illicit similar reactions or not. I'm very curious.
And then I have the movies, which, upon second viewing, I realize I don't like integrated into the whole of the series. Thirdspace isn't quite as cemented in place as it should be, so its better to view it outside of season four. In the Beginning, I realize, is better viewed at the end (well, before the Lost Tales) and not in between Objects at Rest and Sleeping in Light as I had originally planned.
Grade: B
P.S.
There's that ever dangling question about the Crusade viewing order. I'll follow the suggestions I received back a page or two, unless anyone has anything more definitive to say on the matter. I'm cautiously optimistic about the whole thing.
"The Wheel of Fire"
Anything would be disappointing after the previous two episodes. The first time I saw season five, I was struck by an incredible feeling of "Wait--there's four more episodes after this?" when I finished "The Fall of Centauri Prime." I'm still struck by that feeling. There's something that feels incredibly wrong laughing at G'Kar's woes during the episode's teaser. We just saw the Londo's great fall, and now we're stuck with this? Almost everything in this episode strikes me this way--and that's not to say that it's bad--some of it is really, really great stuff. It just feels like it should have come before this--before the previous two episodes.
Lochley's confrontation with Garibaldi is fantastic--it finally gives depth to the Zoe scenes from "Day of the Dead" earlier in the season. But there are only two episodes left for Lochley after this (ignoring the spin-offs and movies). Shouldn't this have come earlier. In a way, the Garibaldi in the previous two episodes seemed like he was completely different than the Garibaldi seen before or after. He's totally functional there, but here he's a total mess. I suppose that's not out of the realm of possibility with alcoholics.
What is out of the realm of possibility are two things. First, that Sheridan let this slide for so long. He doesn't strike me as the type who would let this sit for two whole months, especially with things heating up over the Centauri at the same time. Secondly, I'm dumbfounded that Garibaldi doesn't face stricter consequences. His friends let him off, when he should be facing court martial or whatever the equivalent is for his position. His drinking probably caused the Centauri War to escalate like it did a few episodes ago, but he hasn't faced any consequences with that.
Finally, there's the question of Lyta. I've been pretty vocal in my disappointment over her character's development after the Shadow War (and, more dramatically, in season five). It's not that I don't buy the way she reacts to the things that happen around her (well, except for Byron, but I would have bought that if the writing/acting was there). It's that I don't buy how everyone else treats her. When Franklin and Sheridan discuss why she's pissed, their actions never come up once. They blame the Vorlons, the Psi Corp, the Death of Byron--but never themselves. And after everything Lyta has done for them--saved them from total disaster from Earth in season two by exposing Talia, saved them from total disaster in the Shadow War in season three, and saved them from total disaster from Earth again in season four--they put her in smaller quarters (forcing her back to the Psi Corp) and ignore her wants and needs (and her people's wants and needs) which go against everything the Alliance is supposed to stand for. Apparently, we are one... except for telepaths. So much for progress. It’s no wonder she goes off the deep end. I’ve been reading To Dream in the City of Sorrows this past week (it’s fantastic) and it’s become pretty clear through Sakai’s portions of the book that there are plenty of dead worlds lying out there, some of them worthless. Perfect sites for a telepath colony—instead, we’re just escalating to a telepath war that we’ll probably never get to see. The telepaths are one of the most interesting things in the Babylon 5 universe, but ultimately, they’re a missed opportunity.
Still, with all my bitching, the scene where Lyta is taken down is fantastic. Still, the Garibaldi/Lyta scenes aren’t, if simply because they’re all set-up for some pay-off that we haven’t arrived at yet (and might never arrive at), beyond certain parts of the third Psi-Corp book.
Delenn is pregnant in this episode, which is a nice progression of the Sheridan/Delenn storyline—I just wish Sheridan wasn’t so dumbfounded. Again, he ignores what he learned in War Without End (The Legions of Fire confirm that he remembers what happened in his flash forwards), that he has a son named David with Delenn. I understand that he is surprised, but after a moment I expected him to realize that it was inevitable. He doesn’t. At least this lapse of memory won’t have such serious consequences as forgetting about the Shadow’s servants running amuck on Centauri Prime and making Londo and his people miserable.
And, yes, after all that wild complaining, I still liked the episode. I just didn’t love it. I love Sleeping in Light (A+ without even viewing it again), but the next two... I don't know. I wonder if they'll illicit similar reactions or not. I'm very curious.
And then I have the movies, which, upon second viewing, I realize I don't like integrated into the whole of the series. Thirdspace isn't quite as cemented in place as it should be, so its better to view it outside of season four. In the Beginning, I realize, is better viewed at the end (well, before the Lost Tales) and not in between Objects at Rest and Sleeping in Light as I had originally planned.
Grade: B
P.S.
There's that ever dangling question about the Crusade viewing order. I'll follow the suggestions I received back a page or two, unless anyone has anything more definitive to say on the matter. I'm cautiously optimistic about the whole thing.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
"To Dream in the City of Sorrows"
I've been told by a number of posters that this novel is one of the best media tie-in books ever written. They weren't lying. It wasn't as good as A Stitch in Time, but it was close. It explained away plenty of things, like what happened to Sakai, what happened with that big scar on Sinclair's face in War Without End, how Marcus came to join the rangers and his relationship with Sinclair, and, most importantly, what happened to Sinclair that catapulted him from Commander of Babylon 5 to Ambassador to Minbar to Ranger One in less than a year.
I guess the only lingering questions I have are:
(1) What happened to Sinclair for the remaining 6-10 months of his stay on Minbar? There seems to be a golden opportunity for another book here. Guess that won't be happening though, given the way B5 books are at the moment.
(2) Did Sinclair find Sakai or not? Either way, what happened to her and when did she end up?
(3) Marcus (in the epilogue) talks about the return of Valen in a way that is almost like being hit on the head with a mallet. It seems to me to be obvious foreshadowing, but of what? Is there something waiting in the Lost Tales or elsewhere perhaps?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that the framing sequence takes place immediately after "Grey 17 is Missing?" and before... "Shadow Dancing," perhaps? And that the bulk of the novel takes place during 2259 (since it ends some time before Marcus' mission in the season three opener is complete)?
Oh... Grade: A+
"To Dream in the City of Sorrows"
I've been told by a number of posters that this novel is one of the best media tie-in books ever written. They weren't lying. It wasn't as good as A Stitch in Time, but it was close. It explained away plenty of things, like what happened to Sakai, what happened with that big scar on Sinclair's face in War Without End, how Marcus came to join the rangers and his relationship with Sinclair, and, most importantly, what happened to Sinclair that catapulted him from Commander of Babylon 5 to Ambassador to Minbar to Ranger One in less than a year.
I guess the only lingering questions I have are:
(1) What happened to Sinclair for the remaining 6-10 months of his stay on Minbar? There seems to be a golden opportunity for another book here. Guess that won't be happening though, given the way B5 books are at the moment.
(2) Did Sinclair find Sakai or not? Either way, what happened to her and when did she end up?
(3) Marcus (in the epilogue) talks about the return of Valen in a way that is almost like being hit on the head with a mallet. It seems to me to be obvious foreshadowing, but of what? Is there something waiting in the Lost Tales or elsewhere perhaps?
(4) Am I correct in assuming that the framing sequence takes place immediately after "Grey 17 is Missing?" and before... "Shadow Dancing," perhaps? And that the bulk of the novel takes place during 2259 (since it ends some time before Marcus' mission in the season three opener is complete)?
Oh... Grade: A+
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
It's hinted at in the comic "In Valen's Name", as well as in a fan-supported game called "I've Found Her".
It's hinted at in the comic "In Valen's Name", as well as in a fan-supported game called "I've Found Her".
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
^^
Cool. I've begun the final three tonight. Objects in Motion was far better than I had remembered. I'm on the verge of crying like a baby, and there's still plenty of Babylon 5 left for me. Can I make it through Sleeping in Light without breaking down, 'tis the question...
^^
Cool. I've begun the final three tonight. Objects in Motion was far better than I had remembered. I'm on the verge of crying like a baby, and there's still plenty of Babylon 5 left for me. Can I make it through Sleeping in Light without breaking down, 'tis the question...
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
"Objects in Motion"
This episode was a perfect beginning of the end of the series. All the things I remember hating about it turned out to be in "The Wheel of Fire" instead of this episode. THIS is the episode that should have come after "The Fall of Centauri Prime."
Grade: A
"Objects at Rest"
Most of this episode is very good, and very sad, but there's one moment that will always piss me off: Lennier's betrayal of Sheridan. Now, the idea is sound, but the execution is the most contrived thing I've seen since Bruce Campbell was trapped under a balsa-wood shelf at the end of The Evil Dead. First of all, the inciting incident is less than exciting or believable. On what should be the most secure White Star in the fleet their just happens to be some sort of damaged system, and Sheridan and Lennier just happen to be nearby when it becomes damaged, and Sheridan just happens to be trapped by a pressure door at the same time. Furthermore, I don't buy Lennier's actions. I felt that he had reconciled his feelings for Delenn at the end of "The Fall of Centauri Prime." The whole staging of the betrayal just irks me--it's not well done.
The other thing that confused me about the episode is if Delenn sees Londo's keeper or not. It seems like the shot where it kind of appears is her subjective point of view, but if so, why doesn't she mention it to Sheridan?
Everything else in the episode brings Babylon 5's fifth season to a perfect close.
Grade: B+
After second viewing of these two episodes (and third viewing of Sleeping in Light) I don't feel them to be as strongly linked as others have. Sleeping in Light is better served, I think, as a finale to everything (except for The Lost Tales, which take the point of view as to looking back after SiL) Babylon 5 related. On third viewing, I think I'll finish out the series with In the Beginning and Sleeping in Light back to back, and then embark on however many Lost Tales have been produced.
Oh, Sleeping in Light... I don't think there's anything more to be said about it. I certainly said my piece upon first viewing and during the live commentary thread a few months back.
"Sleeping in Light"
Grade: A+
And then comes "The River of Souls." It was simultaneously far better than I had expected, and far worse than I could possibly imagine. I'll write out my thoughts later, which are all over the place at the moment. Maybe after I've seen Legend of the Rangers and can have something quite possibly lesser to compare it to.
I've also begun the Psi Corp Trilogy--loving it so far. Helps keep my mind off River of Souls. And I've almost completed my list of the best way to view/read the Babylon 5 universe, along with my attached judgmental grades.
"Objects in Motion"
This episode was a perfect beginning of the end of the series. All the things I remember hating about it turned out to be in "The Wheel of Fire" instead of this episode. THIS is the episode that should have come after "The Fall of Centauri Prime."
Grade: A
"Objects at Rest"
Most of this episode is very good, and very sad, but there's one moment that will always piss me off: Lennier's betrayal of Sheridan. Now, the idea is sound, but the execution is the most contrived thing I've seen since Bruce Campbell was trapped under a balsa-wood shelf at the end of The Evil Dead. First of all, the inciting incident is less than exciting or believable. On what should be the most secure White Star in the fleet their just happens to be some sort of damaged system, and Sheridan and Lennier just happen to be nearby when it becomes damaged, and Sheridan just happens to be trapped by a pressure door at the same time. Furthermore, I don't buy Lennier's actions. I felt that he had reconciled his feelings for Delenn at the end of "The Fall of Centauri Prime." The whole staging of the betrayal just irks me--it's not well done.
The other thing that confused me about the episode is if Delenn sees Londo's keeper or not. It seems like the shot where it kind of appears is her subjective point of view, but if so, why doesn't she mention it to Sheridan?
Everything else in the episode brings Babylon 5's fifth season to a perfect close.
Grade: B+
After second viewing of these two episodes (and third viewing of Sleeping in Light) I don't feel them to be as strongly linked as others have. Sleeping in Light is better served, I think, as a finale to everything (except for The Lost Tales, which take the point of view as to looking back after SiL) Babylon 5 related. On third viewing, I think I'll finish out the series with In the Beginning and Sleeping in Light back to back, and then embark on however many Lost Tales have been produced.
Oh, Sleeping in Light... I don't think there's anything more to be said about it. I certainly said my piece upon first viewing and during the live commentary thread a few months back.
"Sleeping in Light"
Grade: A+
And then comes "The River of Souls." It was simultaneously far better than I had expected, and far worse than I could possibly imagine. I'll write out my thoughts later, which are all over the place at the moment. Maybe after I've seen Legend of the Rangers and can have something quite possibly lesser to compare it to.
I've also begun the Psi Corp Trilogy--loving it so far. Helps keep my mind off River of Souls. And I've almost completed my list of the best way to view/read the Babylon 5 universe, along with my attached judgmental grades.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
^^
Well, this was my third go-around with that episode (fourth, if you count watching it with the commentary). So I've probably seen it the most of any Babylon 5 episode. It's still sad as hell though. Though the episode makes me tear up with a variety of scenes, I think its Richard Biggs' appearance that gets me the most, knowing he never had the chance to reach that age in real life.
^^
Well, this was my third go-around with that episode (fourth, if you count watching it with the commentary). So I've probably seen it the most of any Babylon 5 episode. It's still sad as hell though. Though the episode makes me tear up with a variety of scenes, I think its Richard Biggs' appearance that gets me the most, knowing he never had the chance to reach that age in real life.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
Therein lies part of its greatness. Even after repeated viewings, the episode still has emotional power. Some episodes are just like that. DS9 has "Duet" and "The Visitor", which still have the ability to move me profoundly every time I see them. "Sleeping In Light" is just like that. Part of it comes from the attachment we as fans place upon those characters. Part of it is the music. But all of it together is something special.
Therein lies part of its greatness. Even after repeated viewings, the episode still has emotional power. Some episodes are just like that. DS9 has "Duet" and "The Visitor", which still have the ability to move me profoundly every time I see them. "Sleeping In Light" is just like that. Part of it comes from the attachment we as fans place upon those characters. Part of it is the music. But all of it together is something special.
Re: First time impressions from the Babylon 5 virgin
this has always bugged me. but whatever the cause, the effect is to make londo the most tragic character i've ever seen on screen. at the end of season 5, my heart nearly always breaks seeing him all alone, on the thrown.
this has always bugged me. but whatever the cause, the effect is to make londo the most tragic character i've ever seen on screen. at the end of season 5, my heart nearly always breaks seeing him all alone, on the thrown.
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