Speaking of Tosche Station and Shakespeare, anyone familiar with this? They've done adaptations of all of the saga films to date. My copy of Jedi the Last should be arriving in my mailbox today!
New animated show announced... Star Wars: Resistance
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Speaking of Tosche Station and Shakespeare, anyone familiar with this? They've done adaptations of all of the saga films to date. My copy of Jedi the Last should be arriving in my mailbox today!
I read the ANH one. It has limited amusement value, but the joke wears out half way through. I haven't bothered with the others.
Well, as a Star Wars fan and a theatre guy, I appreciate the adaptation. But yours is probably a fair assessment. I'm re-reading them now and its kinda fun what they do with Jar Jar. Basically, they play him off as though he's just playing the fool the whole time to gain sympathy and save his people.
Yes, that's the line that gets the ball rolling.
At this point in the film, Poe knows exactly four primary details about Admiral Holdo:
1) Her name (and rank), which is famous around the Resistance, and presumably not because she constantly goes around saying "holdo. Holdo. HOLDO! HOLDOOR!! HOLDOOR!!! HOLD THE DOOR!!!! HOLD THE DOOR!!!!! HOLD THE DOOR!!!!!!" every time she's trying to catch the turbolift. Still too soon.
2) Her combat record, or at least that she's famous for her performance at The Battle of Chyron Belt, which Poe says with the same kind of respect people obviously give Lando's "little maneuver at the Battle of Taanab" (clearly a euphemism for a sex position from Lando's former robot lover L3-37, now part of the Falcon's sound-system, dropping sick beats) or which Han gives himself for his performance on the Kessel Run.
3) That she's a woman.
4) That she has lavender hair and a flowing lavender dress and that she and Effie from The Hunger Games have the same stylist, although Effie dials it up to eleven, because she always had to show off after getting envious that Holdo went to the dinosaur island without her. But Holdo said she only did that because Effie judged that a-capella competition without her. Wait, I may be mixing up franchises.
Anyhoo, Poe clearly respects the name and combat record of Holdo, leaving the fact that she's a woman and that she dresses like Underwhelming Prom Night Barbie (though Padme, Leia, Mon Mothma and others led armies in elaborate finery and hairstyles too) to judge her on and conclude within seconds of first seeing her that she was "Not what he expected".
He then begins to immediately start second guessing her orders, Poesplaining to her, running secret side missions without her authorization that end up getting the entire fleet destroyed and almost everyone killed, and undermining her command, before finally mutinying for the second time, the first being when he refused to follow Leia's orders to return to the ship and not get their whole bomber squadron destroyed.
The only things he has to go on that he doesn't respect (because he clearly respects her name and reputation) at that point are either that she's a woman or that she dresses kind of Frou-Frou, or both. Neither of which should be disqualifying since half the galaxy runs around fighting in elaborate colorful robes and dresses and hairstyles, men and women alike.
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I just realized that Taanab is an anagram of Bataan. Sometimes I'm so slow (but I still get there). In my defense, I'd never seen it written down, in all its triple-A glory.
Poe certainly already knows Holdo is a is a woman. He's judging her purely on her fashion sense, that is to say her very non-military look, and the fact that he thought she was overly dismissive of him the first time they ever met. There is absolutely nothing in his conduct that suggests her being a woman factors into his distrust at all. As has been pointed out, he's got no problem with Leia.
Something I've been wondering, why does Leia spend this movie wearing such an ornate dress anyway? She spends most of TFA in a military uniform, except for the ending which, and then begins wearing dresses. So after Starkiller is destroyed and they presumably are beginning the evacuation of the Resistance base in the hopes of leaving before First Order forces arrive, she changes out of a practical military uniform and into a rather impractical dress, which she continues to wear while on the run from the First Order. Is there a reason for this, other than providing more action figure variant options for Hasbro to make?
There's more time between the two movies than it looks like. The base isn't discovered at the end of TFA. This happens between movies. Call it a week later, just to pick a number. Anyway, they discover the need to evacuate while Leia and Holdo are at the same dinner party, and they never have time to change later. When we see Rey again in TLJ she has yet to finish walking and reach out to Luke. So we know the story has actually jumped back in time slightly. I think it jumped back more than a few seconds, more like days. The stories don't sync back up until Kylo and Rey have their first Force conversation.
Well, he's got no problem with Leia except for disobeying her direct orders to return to the ship and as a result getting everyone under his command killed. He obviously likes her, because he knows her, but he's still disrespecting her position. But only TLJ Poe, not TFA Poe, who is almost a completely different person.
And I was listing the things Poe knew about Holdo at that point, not saying it was an either or choice. I was giving people the option of deciding whether he had a problem with her for being a woman or for her manner of dress, or both.
But it's still misogynistic to disregard her for her manner of dress when he a) knows Leia trusts her, b) knows the Resistance trusts her, c) she's a competent and successful commander with a proven combat track record, and d) both women and men in the SW universe regularly lead military forces while wearing elaborate robes and dresses. Are Mon Mothma, Leia, and Padme less competent at their jobs because of what they wear in the command center? It's not a practical outfit for going into actual combat, sure, but that's not what Holdo's duty was.
Holdo hadn't even spoken to him yet when he had already dismissed her based on her appearance.
Any real person can seem to be completely different people at different times. Hasn't anyone in your life ever surprised you by revealing a facet of their personality that wasn't immediately apparent on the surface? Haven't you ever liked a person at first acquaintance only to discover later on that they have attitudes you can't stomach, or disliked a person at first but later come to understand that you'd misjudged them?
According to IMDb, Poe Dameron's screen time in The Force Awakens is all of 8 minutes and 45 seconds. How well can you really get to know a person in 9 minutes?
You're contradicting yourself here. Misogyny means hatred of women. Yet you're saying that Poe judges Holdo by different standards than he uses to judge Leia or Mothma. If his problem with Holdo is unique to her and not to other women, then how is that misogyny?
Mon Mothma isn't a character in either TFA or TLJ.
You are reading way too much into Poe's "Not what I expected" comment. There is nothing inherently sexist about it. We would have gotten the same comment about a man wearing a (star wars version of) Hawaiian shirt and sandals, or one of the Casino outfits. Their relationship doesn't go south until after they speak for the first time. Whether or not her outfit falls outside the range of normality is a very personal judgement that's pointless to debate here. You can see my thoughts on why she's wearing it a couple of posts up this thread.
How isn't it? Starkiller had the base targeted throughout the final battle.
It could be that the First Order was regrouping following the major loss at Starkiller and the Resistance knew that.
Just like the end of A New Hope. The Empire knows the Rebels are hiding on Yavin 4, but instead of fleeing right away they take the time to have a grand medal ceremony first.
To this degree, over this short a period of time, with no apparent direct stimulus shown to cause the change, besides the stress everyone else was also under, which he previously had handled just fine? If that happened overnight I would question their mental state and certainly wouldn't leave them in command of a squadron or allow them to run around undermining my authority and endangering (in fact, destroying) almost the entire Resistance at every turn. And then still bizarrely leave him in a position of command even after all that.
You have no idea.
For an example from my personal life, my Grandma went from being a kind old woman who always had buttermints in a crystal jar on a spotless table and who never cursed or had a harsh word to say about anyone, much less her grandkids, to cussing like a sailor and often cruelly lashing out with insults at her grandaughter/caretaker (my sister) and forgetting what year it was and that my grandpa was no longer alive. Of course, she has Alzheimer's and this change happened gradually over the course of a few years, not overnight. Which again, goes back to mental state.
By that rationale how well can we know ANY film or TV character? You spend an episode with them, and you've known them much less than an hour, even if far longer than that has transpired onscreen. A season, less than a day. Seven seasons, less than a week. A week is not enough time to get to know all aspects of someone if we're treating this like real life.
We've spent far less than a week of actual screen time getting to know Captain Picard through seven seasons and four movies, so if he suddenly showed up a mutinous, misogynist, incompetent in this new miniseries(?) without even the barest of explanations for the changes like we were given for his often significant behavioral changes in Generations, First Contact, Insurrection, or Nemesis (some of which still met with a lot of protest), you wouldn't object, because we can't possibly know the character? Why did people make a big deal out of his mid-life crisis, Prime Directive-violating, alien blasting dune buggy ride? And at least that was telegraphed by his shift from staid captain to action movie star over the course of the previous films.
Poe completely changed personality in a manner of hours without any specified stimulus, or at least none that weren't affecting everyone else too. Granted, we don't know him anywhere near as much as we know Picard, but no reasoning was given for him being a totally different person.
I didn't say anything about Poe's judgment of Mon Mothma, because she's not in the movie or even mentioned in it. I used her as an example of someone, like Padme, Leia, or Holdo, who led her people into combat or in military briefings while wearing elaborate finery. I was simply establishing that this is considered a fairly normal thing for commanders in the Star Wars universe to do, so Poe should have no reason to holdo that against Holdo, yet he does. So no, I didn't contradict myself, and I don't need to be told an overly simplistic definition of misogyny, thanks.
I also said that while Poe clearly likes Leia on an individual level (and respects her in TFA), TLJ Poe, who as I've said is virtually a different person, IMO, disrespects her authority and disobeys her direct order to return to base, getting his whole squadron killed, the first of his two mutinies against female commanders in the film. People who treat women like crap can still have women they've known personally who they appear to "like", but still treat with disrespect. A lot of misogynists still love their mothers and sisters, but also treat them as lesser people and disrespect their opinions. Racists can treat minorities like second class citizens but still be outwardly polite to people of color they've known for years, because "they're one of the good ones" in their warped minds. That kind of irrational and contradictory disconnect happens all the time.
Also, the misogyny thing was only one small aspect of an extensive overall argument that Poe becomes a drastically different character between TFA and TLJ:
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/new...r-wars-resistance.293963/page-4#post-12533107
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/new...r-wars-resistance.293963/page-5#post-12533912
But this has all pretty much seemed to boil down to a subjective judgment on whether or not his change between films was earned or justified, so I don't see much point in rehashing the same arguments over and over again. I've said my piece, and I don't know what else to add to it to convince anyone without just repeating myself.
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He would have done the same thing if they were male.
He wasn't protesting against them personally, he was protesting their orders.
Which brings up a whole other set of issues. Poe is a soldier. Soldiers don't have the luxury of protesting their orders. Indeed, see where doing so lead them in this case.
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