Nemesis Clones

[UnknownSample]

I just saw Nemesis tonight for the second time. It's with second viewings that I really take in a film or episode. It's...odd,. to see a whole thread with people going in detail about the ins and outs of show business in order to account for how disastrously bad this film supposedly is, when my impression tonight was of an unexpectedly good film, that a lot of time, thought, and dedication was put into.
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Logical flaws in plots do matter. They are not, however, what determine if a film is good or bad. Artistic aspects are a lot harder to nail down and describe, and easier to miss I suppose, if one is in nitpick mode.
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[Dukhat]

Actually, I prefer my movies to be good and make sense. But usually I only get one of those attributes. In the case of Nemesis, I got neither.

 

[Smellmet]

I just saw Nemesis tonight for the second time. It's with second viewings that I really take in a film or episode. It's...odd,. to see a whole thread with people going in detail about the ins and outs of show business in order to account for how disastrously bad this film supposedly is, when my impression tonight was of an unexpectedly good film, that a lot of time, thought, and dedication was put into.
---------------------------
Logical flaws in plots do matter. They are not, however, what determine if a film is good or bad. Artistic aspects are a lot harder to nail down and describe, and easier to miss I suppose, if one is in nitpick mode.
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It's a total guilty pleasure of mine, Nemesis. I know most people hate it. I know I should hate it. Yet I watch it more than any other of the TNG movies.

 

[Timo]

Never had a problem with the cloning issue. Romulans grabbed Starfleet genetic material from where they could, almost automatically meaning they got it from unimportant people who weren't under any sort of surveillance or scrutiny. They launched a program of modest scope, perhaps a thousand copies, probably fewer. They then dumped that program, and dumped the clones on Remus (enough of them to warrant the logistics of moving them to boost the labor force, not enough to strain those logistics and make a swift execution preferable). Anybody not adopted by a powerful Sugar Daddy died. Out of the elevenish survivors, only one rose to be Spartacus.

The issue is with the writers not making much use of the cloning. Shinzon was created for a purpose, yet curiously the purpose plays no role in the movie. Why not let him have a stab at being Picard, instead of just Picard having a stab at him? Why not let him become Picard at the conclusion at that? It appears Shinzon never ceased to be a tool of the Romulans: instead of goals and aims, he had masters and operators who just led him to believe he was in charge. Logical as such, but dramatically not quite as satisfactory as letting the villain think for himself.

An ancillary issue is that we may very well have seen another Romulan clone in the movie. B-4 came from somewhere, and Data doesn't think he came from Soong. Copying of Data would be a project nicely concurrent with copying Picard, as the time elapsed since the android's entrance to Starfleet coincides nicely with Shinzon's apparent age.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

The movie does not give the impression that thousands of people were cloned. It gives the impression that only Picard was cloned. Hypothesize all you want, but that's what seems to be implied here.

And as for Data not being built by Soong? The movie doesn't imply that either. It gives every indication that B4 was another Soong prototype.

 

[Timo]

I don't see any implication on the number of clones one way or another. This is the story of Shinzon, not of the cloning project. We could as well argue that there's the implication of Starfleet having no ships other than the Enterprise plus the handful listed on that computer screen, explaining why the E-E is the one sent to Romulus...

B-4 comes as a surprise to Data, who has had time to discuss Soong's true research in detail with Julianna Tainer. The implication that he is false may not be there, but no implication to the contrary is present, either. We have no a priori reason to think that the claims made to or by our heroes should be true, as we're dealing with a scheming villain here. Indeed, his scheming with B-4 is what makes the E-E the ship nearest to Romulus when Shinzon's call for negotiations is sent, and this time we can well speak of an "implied" connection.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

Believe me, B4 being a substandard Romulan copy would have made more sense. Much more sense. And yes, you'd have thought Data would have known about him by now. But the whole reason B4 exists IRL was so that if Spiner ever decided he wanted to play Data again, he'd have a way to come back. I don't think the idea was to say, "Hey, Data's back...except he's now using this cheap Romulan-made lookalike body." Hence the idea that B4 is an honest-to-goodness Soong android.

As for the cloning program, I've mentioned this before. If there were thousands of clones made, what happened to them all? Were they all destroyed? If so, why was Shinzon spared just to be sent to the mines? Wouldn't they all have been sent to the mines if that were the case? And if they were all sent to the mines, what happened to them? Did they all die working hard labor, and Shinzon just happened to be the last to survive? If so, why doesn't Shinzon mention them? You'd have thought that if there were thousands of cloned Starfleet personnel, Shinzon would have buddied up with them, since he was one of them too. But he doesn't say a word to that effect. The movie gives every indication that it was Picard only that was cloned, as illogical as that sounds.

 

[Paradise City]

Well, in DS9 when O'Brien was stitched up by the Cardassians, the agent that did the ground work was a Cardassian deep cover agent by the name of Raymond Boone. The real Boone was a middle ranking character but they clearly thought there was some mileage in having him replaced by an agent. Presumably a similar thought process went into designing a clone in the mould of Picard.

I personally don't have much of a problem with Nemesis. It's one of these cases for me, where the sheer strength of feeling against it is something I don't quite understand. It's not considerably more flawed than anything else that's middle-of-the-road Trek by my eyes anyway.

 

[Smellmet]

Well, in DS9 when O'Brien was stitched up by the Cardassians, the agent that did the ground work was a Cardassian deep cover agent by the name of Raymond Boone. The real Boone was a middle ranking character but they clearly thought there was some mileage in having him replaced by an agent. Presumably a similar thought process went into designing a clone in the mould of Picard.

I personally don't have much of a problem with Nemesis. It's one of these cases for me, where the sheer strength of feeling against it is something I don't quite understand. It's not considerably more flawed than anything else that's middle-of-the-road Trek by my eyes anyway.

Exactly. It's got it's problems sure, there's issues with the script and how some characters behave, but I could level these criticisms at plenty of trek movies. I really appreciate the adult tone of the movie and I'm a sucker for the starship battle at the end. It is vastly more watchable than it's limp predecessor, especially in the FX department. I think it's easily as good as First contact.

I liken nemesis to having a big tray of chips smothered in cheese. Trashy made of not great ingredients and not good for you but an oh so satisfying dirty meal.

 

[Timo]

If there were thousands of clones made, what happened to them all? Were they all destroyed?

Probably not, since Shinzon wasn't, and it would be unsatisfactory to think that Shinzon was in any way special. He wasn't said to be, Picard wasn't said to be, and the whole issue here is that we want to believe neither of them was special, to avoid having to believe in Romulan prescience on Picard's career.

Whether there would have been thousands of clones, or hundreds, or dozens, depends on a number of parameters. But there's a Goldilocks number there, as said - too few and there'd be no point in paying for their transportation to Remus, too many and the same thing would happen. I'd think "thousands" might be the number of cloning attempts made, "hundreds" might be the number of viable clones actually created and then deported to Romulus, and "dozens" the number still surviving as the movie opens. Although Shinzon might then go and kill the others, just because.

And if they were all sent to the mines, what happened to them? Did they all die working hard labor, and Shinzon just happened to be the last to survive?

Probably not, since Shinzon didn't die. But probably most of them did, as Shinzon was quoted with a rare survival aid, the Viceroy. OTOH, nothing about the Viceroy was unique as such - many prisoners might have taken human/Fed clones as brides just to spite their captors.

If so, why doesn't Shinzon mention them? You'd have thought that if there were thousands of cloned Starfleet personnel, Shinzon would have buddied up with them, since he was one of them too.

Surely the guards would have discouraged such buddying up when they had a whole planet (or perhaps half a planet) for distributing the lot and could have turned any secret meeting into an excuse for killing a few of the clones for their amusement.

But he doesn't say a word to that effect.

He isn't the type to do so, though. He wants to pretend that the Remans are his cause, and he would gain little by pretending that the clones are part of his clause, or by revealing that he cares neither for the Remans nor his fellow clones.

The movie gives every indication that it was Picard only that was cloned, as illogical as that sounds.

But what "indication" is there? Just a bit of focus on a specific character who makes good. Not everybody can be Praetor!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

An ancillary issue is that we may very well have seen another Romulan clone in the movie. B-4 came from somewhere, and Data doesn't think he came from Soong. Copying of Data would be a project nicely concurrent with copying Picard, as the time elapsed since the android's entrance to Starfleet coincides nicely with Shinzon's apparent age.

A most intriguing theory!

And as for Data not being built by Soong? The movie doesn't imply that either. It gives every indication that B4 was another Soong prototype.

It is assumed by the TNG characters that B4 came from Soong. OTOH, B4 has no memory of Soong, or of anything before being discovered by Picard, and B4 being a Romulan "clone" would fit with how he is used in the movie.

The movie gives every indication that it was Picard only that was cloned, as illogical as that sounds.

It doesn't give any indication either way - no movie can address EVERY facet of its plot. So the issue is open to speculation.... I find it interesting to think that, if Picard and Data were both cloned, maybe the whole cast of TNG was cloned, and subsequently worked to death in the mines. (The novelverse could address this.)

It's a total guilty pleasure of mine, Nemesis. I know most people hate it. I know I should hate it. Yet I watch it more than any other of the TNG movies.

At the risk of sounding like Yoda, there is no "should".
Liking things is always a measure of personal preference, nothing to do with an objective standard of quality - and these things are never "objective". Ultimately it just comes down to how things balance - do the things you like outweigh the things you don't? Then like it for those reasons, and don't feel guilty for it.

 

[Smellmet]

At the risk of sounding like Yoda, there is no "should".
Liking things is always a measure of personal preference, nothing to do with an objective standard of quality - and these things are never "objective". Ultimately it just comes down to how things balance - do the things you like outweigh the things you don't? Then like it for those reasons, and don't feel guilty for it.

It's more of an acknowledgement on my part that Nemesis isn't really a great film objectively, yet for some reason, I always enjoy watching it.
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Aliens_Special_Edition

 

[Mytran]

Probably not, since Shinzon wasn't, and it would be unsatisfactory to think that Shinzon was in any way special. He wasn't said to be, Picard wasn't said to be, and the whole issue here is that we want to believe neither of them was special, to avoid having to believe in Romulan prescience on Picard's career.

Whether there would have been thousands of clones, or hundreds, or dozens, depends on a number of parameters. But there's a Goldilocks number there, as said - too few and there'd be no point in paying for their transportation to Remus, too many and the same thing would happen. I'd think "thousands" might be the number of cloning attempts made, "hundreds" might be the number of viable clones actually created and then deported to Romulus, and "dozens" the number still surviving as the movie opens. Although Shinzon might then go and kill the others, just because.


Probably not, since Shinzon didn't die. But probably most of them did, as Shinzon was quoted with a rare survival aid, the Viceroy. OTOH, nothing about the Viceroy was unique as such - many prisoners might have taken human/Fed clones as brides just to spite their captors.


Surely the guards would have discouraged such buddying up when they had a whole planet (or perhaps half a planet) for distributing the lot and could have turned any secret meeting into an excuse for killing a few of the clones for their amusement.


He isn't the type to do so, though. He wants to pretend that the Remans are his cause, and he would gain little by pretending that the clones are part of his clause, or by revealing that he cares neither for the Remans nor his fellow clones.


But what "indication" is there? Just a bit of focus on a specific character who makes good. Not everybody can be Praetor!

Timo Saloniemi

Whether there were truly thousands, hundreds or dozens, the very fact that there was more than one helps to plaster over an annoying plot hole in the movie, namely the apparently bizarre choice to send a single, small human child to "work" in the mines. I can believe it a lot more (aside from the fact that we shouldn't take Shinzon's statements as gospel) if the child is part of a group that was transported there for slave labour en masse.

Who knows, maybe he wasn't even the only Picard clone, just the only one that (thanks to the Viceroy) survived the mines?

 

[eyeresist]

Whether there were truly thousands, hundreds or dozens, the very fact that there was more than one helps to plaster over an annoying plot hole in the movie, namely the apparently bizarre choice to send a single, small human child to "work" in the mines. I can believe it a lot more (aside from the fact that we shouldn't take Shinzon's statements as gospel) if the child is part of a group that was transported there for slave labour en masse.

I don't think it's bizarre to send a child to the mines. Remember that children worked in mines in Victorian Britain well into the 19th century.
Shinzon probably wasn't sent to Remus on a special flight, but was part of a regular slave shipment.

Actually, I speculate that perhaps the cloning was actually done on Remus, as a way to keep the operation secret. Or maybe there was even a cloning facility on Remus already, to provide a supply of miners on-site.

Who knows, maybe he wasn't even the only Picard clone, just the only one that (thanks to the Viceroy) survived the mines?

Now that sounds like a hilarious webcomic.

 

[Mytran]

I don't think it's bizarre to send a child to the mines. Remember that children worked in mines in Victorian Britain well into the 19th century.
Shinzon probably wasn't sent to Remus on a special flight, but was part of a regular slave shipment.

Oh don't worry, I haven't forgotten my country's former labour solutions!

However, if we were to take Shinzon's statement in isolation, you might think that he was the only child who was ever sent there. Well, the only non-Reman child anyway.

 

[Timo]

One wonders how much need for labor there was in the mines in the end. There seemed to be no benefit to having people holding the ray-pickaxes at Rura Penthe, as opposed to a machine doing it; it was just work for the sake of making the prisoners suffer. Did Shinzon and Viceroy really contribute to the dilithium output of those mines?

Using offworld mines as a means of executing criminals sounds inefficient, perhaps. But space travel appears dirt cheap in Trek, and a society could afford a few quirks in that respect. Crime and punishment here on Earth has seldom been about efficiency, either.

The idea of the cloning taking place on Remus is a sound one. I thought there was a flashback image of young Shinzon being scrutinized in the Senate Chambers, but there's no such thing - he never need have been on Romulus before his coup, canonically speaking.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[timtonruben359]

I have a hunch that some background on the cloning and motivations of Shinzon were left on the cutting room floor, along with 45 mins of the movie. There is a deleted scene on the DVD with Shinzon addressing some of the Romulans who aided him with coup that gives a little bit more of an explanation about why he wants to attack the federation.

 

[Timo]

Now THAT would have been interesting to learn! Most other bits of apparent nonsense or mystery about the plot or the characters are easily rationalized, and sometimes we can even see what the writers probably intended there. But the reason the villain wants to attack Earth when nobody else does deserves an explanation, no matter how lunatic it might be.

How does the scene go?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[dswynne1]

You know, I would love to see a novelization of the Romulans' cloning project, and why it ultimately failed. In fact, I do recall a replacement for Geordie LaForge was used while the real Geordie was being interrogated and "brainwashed" into being would-be assassin (TNG's episode "The Mind's Eye", S4E24). Was that replacement a clone of Geordie LaForge? Hmmm...

 

[eyeresist]

The idea of the cloning taking place on Remus is a sound one. I thought there was a flashback image of young Shinzon being scrutinized in the Senate Chambers, but there's no such thing - he never need have been on Romulus before his coup, canonically speaking.

Ah, the delights of an active imagination - memories of scenes that never existed! I think I have a few of those myself...

the reason the villain wants to attack Earth when nobody else does deserves an explanation, no matter how lunatic it might be. How does the scene go?

I think this is it (the only thing I could find on youtube). The sound isn't great. Shinzon seems to be inspired to conquer by Donatra (which puts an interesting skew on her "good guy" status in the story). [from 1:31]

SHINZON: Tell the fleet that the days of negotiation and diplomacy are over. The mighty Federation will fall before us - as I promised you. [Nods at Donatra.] The time we have dreamed of is at hand. The time ... of conquest.​

Both the nod and the word "conquest" seem to have special meaning. Poor lad - if only he'd had a better social life, so much pain could have been averted. That viceroy must have been a terrible wingman.

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