Nemesis Clones

[Ghel]

Logan had a part, but the music scoring, direction, and the acting played a large role in the weaknesses of the film too. The B4 retrieval scene would have been ridiculously better had the entire scene not been completely bleached out. In addition, when Data gives Picard the personal transporter for the first time, the way the scene is played and the musical scoring essentially screams "Data's a dead man." This kills any potential surprise later in the film as rather than simply introducing a new device, the director gives away the twist at the end. Finally, after Shinzon's death, the scene lingers too long on Picard as he slums over his clone rather than attempting to save his ship. This makes Picard look like he just gave up himself and his crew (and mostly Data) rather than seeing him decisively act but get saved by a self-sacrificing Data.

Regarding the clones, I would imagine that Romulus would collect DNA of enemy "combatants" for any number of uses later. Plus, in Data's Day, Picard did have a Romulan spy on board the Enterprise. Who knows, perhaps the sped up aging happens in bursts and Shinzon was created much more recently than would seem the case in the film. . .

 

[wayoung]

And I'd hardly use longevity as a way of defending someone's talent. Ehren Kruger still gets regular work, and he's never written a decent movie in his entire career..

Since your post was edited after I replied to add in an entire paragraph...

Ehren Kruger's bad movies are so wildly successful everyone involved in them gets filthy rich. This is not an apt comparison. You write a series of billion dollar movies you're going to get work, regardless of how bad they may be.

John Logan's last major project was creator, show runner, executive producer, and sole writer for Penny Dreadful.
79% first season RT score
100% second season
100% third season
93% series as a whole.

40% of Logan's films have cracked 80% on RT.

Stuart Baird made US Marshals (27%) and Executive Decision (63%).

Obviously all the blame for Nemesis must lie with Logan, an objectively proven No Good, Very Bad Writer, none on Baird, Spiner, Berman, Stewart, the editor, the cinematographer....

 

[Timby]

Rotten Tomatoes is a barometer of quality. Got it.

 

[wayoung]

Rotten Tomatoes is a barometer of quality. Got it.

...Yes. That's the entire point of it. A codified and statistical interpretation of professional critical opinion represented by a numerical value. Or do you reject FiveThirtyEights models too because they don't match your personal preferences?

Good job responding to ANY of my points. You've really sold the whole "John Logan ruined Star Trek" agenda

 

[Timby]

No, I said that John Logan was the primary problem with Nemesis. And Rotten Tomatoes is hardly "codified," when borderline mediocre reviews are classified as "fresh" on a regular basis. That's like saying sales of bags of popcorn is a barometer of a film's quality.

Anyway. Let's look at Logan's career, shall we?

Tornado - Shit.
Bats! - Shit.
Any Given Sunday - Shit.
Gladiator - Roughly 15 percent, at most of his draft remains in the finished product; he retains credit because of WGA arbitration.
The Time Machine - Shit.
Nemesis - Shit.
Sinbad - Shit.
The Last Samurai - Rewritten heavily by Zwick.
The Aviator - Rewritten top-to-bottom by Mann.
Sweeney Todd - Somehow handled to mangle a Sondheim story.
Rango - Broken clock.
Coriolanus - Shit.
Hugo - Remembered for its visuals, little more.
Skyfall - Misogynistic mess.
Spectre - Absolute disaster.

Yep, that's a murderer's row of quality right there.

 

[wayoung]

All hail Timby, arbitrator of art and assigner of blame. Everything above, including your rejection of Rotten Tomatoes as invalid (an attitude opposed by, again, FiveThirtyEight which has endorsed RT's model) is personal opinion with nothing to back it up beyond "I don't like John Logan" . Did John Logan run over your dog or something?

One line. One line is all that is needed.

"I personally don't like John Logan and suspect Nemesis is mainly his fault, but that's based on my own biases with nothing to back it up" is all you need to say. Instead you double down on presenting your personal opinion as objective fact. At this point it almost seems like trolling.

 

[Aldo]

I actually don't think much of Logan's work on Spectre remains. I think his stuff was thrown out, if you have problems with that film the blame should be on Purvis and Wade and Jez Butterworth (but then that film was doomed from the start, they could never get the finale to work).

Nemesis has many cooks in the kitchen that probably contribute to it's blandess. But I think in this case, we can lay most of it at Logan. His script is all over the place, especially with Shinzon's motivation. Why even go after Earth? That comes out of left field, he should have been targeting Romulus in the first place because that's where his beef life. But then that would go against Rick Berman's ridiculous belief that the Star Trek movies where Earth is a target are somehow more successful than those that didn't involve Earth.

 

[eyeresist]

The B4 retrieval scene would have been ridiculously better had the entire scene not been completely bleached out.

Weird complaint. The point was that it was an alien planet.

when Data gives Picard the personal transporter for the first time, the way the scene is played and the musical scoring essentially screams "Data's a dead man."

Nope.

after Shinzon's death, the scene lingers too long on Picard as he slums over his clone rather than attempting to save his ship. This makes Picard look like he just gave up himself and his crew rather than seeing him decisively act

He is stunned by what he has just seen. If he acted like you want, he'd come off looking like a psychopath. "Fiddle-de-dee, another day, another corpse slumped against me..."

Why even go after Earth? That comes out of left field, he should have been targeting Romulus in the first place because that's where his beef life.

"Beef life"? Is that like thug life, but for cows?
We've been over this before. Shinzon identified as Romulan, he wanted to prove himself as a Romulan. He believed what he'd been taught, that the Federation was the enemy. Destroy Earth, be hailed as the greatest Romulan. A simple, logical plan.

 

[Smellmet]

And the Romulans were goading him to attack earth throughout the movie. I've never had a problem with Shinzon's motivations. He had successfully orchestrated a coup of the Romulan government, and potentially had their entire fleet at his disposal - attacking them would have been pointless unless they decided to turn on him (which they did in the final battle). Regardless of his beef with the Romulans, Shinzon could have been head of the most powerful force in the quadrant had his plans been executed.

 

[Timby]

All hail Timby, arbitrator of art and assigner of blame. Everything above, including your rejection of Rotten Tomatoes as invalid (an attitude opposed by, again, FiveThirtyEight which has endorsed RT's model)

FiveThirtyEight, eh? Let me quote it:

Most fundamentally, single-number aggregations — like those used by sites such as Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic and IMDb — are a pitiful way of explaining the diverse views of critics.

Your witness, counselor.

 

[wayoung]

FiveThirtyEight, eh? Let me quote it:

Most fundamentally, single-number aggregations — like those used by sites such as Rotten Tomatoes, Metacritic and IMDb — are a pitiful way of explaining the diverse views of critics.

Your witness, counselor.

Your link is to an article about the specific case of Ghostbusters, showing that a single rated movie score cannot accurately represent everyone's opinion. Your quote specifically explains this context. Nowhere did I allege otherwise. I posted them as a general indicator of quality. Which the writer supports in this other article (you know, the one the writer links too in your post) about how it is generally sound:

"Several sites have built popular rating systems: Rotten Tomatoes,1 Metacritic2and IMDb3 each have their own way of aggregating film reviews. And while the sites have different criteria for picking and combining reviews, they have all built systems with similar values: They use the full continuum of their ratings scale,4 try to maintain consistency,5 and attempt to limit deliberate interference in their ratings.6

These rating systems aren’t perfect, but they’re sound enough to be useful."

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/fandango-movies-ratings/

Which is why you'll find a dozen other articles by this same author and Nate Silver using RT scores as their preferred data sets when evaluating films, as well as an entire podcast from last year using it as control data against other aggreagators.

Now that I've responded to your posting, how about you respond to mine that I've posted over and over again. How does Stuart Baird not hold responsibility for the film? How doesn't Brent Spiner? How doesn't Rick Berman? Jeffrey Kimble? Dallas Puett? You know, all those other people with just as, and in most cases more, influence over the film than Logan, whose careers in those departments pretty much ended because of their work on Nemesis? How does one of two writers shoulder more blame for the film than the executive producer, director, editor, cinematographer, and other writer who came up with the story? Did you work on the production and witness him personally ruining the movie, you know, like how the cast that keeps saying Baird did?

These people did work on the movie. Want to hear their opinions on where it went wrong?

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Notice that they specifically state Logan was not the problem, and that Baird is mostly responsible for the crappiness of the film? Care to comment on that, counsellor?

But you won't. Because you have a hate on for John Logan. For some strange, unfathomable reason. So you'll try to pick apart RT again and ignore Sirtis and Burton's interview.

 

[Dukhat]

"Beef life"? Is that like thug life, but for cows?

It's obvious that Aldo meant to say, "That's where his beef lies." That was an unnecessary dig.

We've been over this before. Shinzon identified as Romulan, he wanted to prove himself as a Romulan.

No, he didn't identify as a Romulan. He identified as a Reman. He even stated that in the movie. Shinzon hates Romulans.

He believed what he'd been taught, that the Federation was the enemy. Destroy Earth, be hailed as the greatest Romulan. A simple, logical plan.

No, as Smellmet stated, he didn't give a shit about the Federation. He was goaded into attacking the Federation by the other Romulans. That was their plan, not his.

And that's where Shinzon's motivation breaks down. Once he becomes the new Praetor, he somehow gets Picard to come to Romulus by the most convoluted means possible, because he needs Picard's blood ASAP to survive. Only instead of outright telling this to Picard, he wastes time having dinner with Picard and telling him all sorts of bullshit, then wastes even more time mind-raping Deanna Troi. Even the Viceroy was getting pissed off at him for fucking around. And all throughout this time, the Romulans he allied with are shitting in their pants because they want him to attack Earth for some reason, and he's too busy jerking around until they finally put the smackdown on him. But wait...why is he even listening to them? What the hell does he really need them for? He doesn't hate humans, he hates Romulans! ????

 

[Mytran]

Part of me likes to wonder if Shinzon is a by-product of the "Yesterday's Enterprise" reality.

Tasha Yar goes back in time, gets captured by Romulans, interrogated, raped and killed.
...
With foreknowledge of Picard's future gained from Tasha's interrogation, the Romulans could've had some conspiracy going to replace Picard long before he ever got near the centre seat on NCC-1701-D. And with Sela free to murder her own mother (given our Tasha's death would have no bearing upon Sela's existence), one can imagine Shinzon and Sela taking their places aboard the flagship, Starfleet completely unawares until it is too late.

Woo. Conspiracy trees.

Keep in mind that if this were true, then the Romulans at the time would only have known about the Picard from the alternate timeline where the Federation was at war with the Klingons (and losing.) There would have been no reason to want to clone him, since in all likelyhood there would have been no Federation left to infiltrate.

Myself, I strongly subscribe to the theory that Shinzon is a result of the Enterprise-C's temporal incursion into the battle of Narendra-III in 2344.
Bear in mind that the in the universe Tasha came from the Enterprise-D was a battleship, one of the best in the Federation. Capturing that prize would be well worth a few years' effort, no doubt spurred on when the Galaxy Class project was commissioned shortly after the Narendra III.
And like many folks in Star Trek, the Romulans no doubt believe they can alter the future to their benefit
Sorry, Rommies! Time travel doesn't work like that


Something else @Lance said piquetted my interest:

Sela, her daughter, is her virtual clone. Pointed ears aside (nothing a little surgery can't fix.)

What if Sela is an actual Clone of Tasha? Again, with a little surgery to help her pass in Romulan society once the whole Picard-clone government (thanks to the political influence of her "father"). Yes, Sela does relate a tale of her childhood but given how expert Romulans are at memory manipulation I don't think we should take every word as gospel. Sela has conditioned since her birth to be a loyal citizen of the empire - and she is, through and through.

Addendum:
In fact, the very possibility that Sela is a clone is actually raised in Redemption:

PICARD: Tasha was a child when this woman was born.
TROI: Sela could have been cloned.
CRUSHER: Or had her appearance surgically altered.
PICARD: But why? What possible advantage could there be to the Romulans? As this now stands, I don't think this will have any impact on our strategy.

And the crew are correct - Sela was never created to be a part of the Duras conspiracy. The truth would not become apparent until the events of Nemesis, many years later.

Just Food for thought

 

[Dukhat]

Myself, I strongly subscribe to the theory that Shinzon is a result of the Enterprise-C's temporal incursion into the battle of Narendra-III in 2344. Bear in mind that the in the universe Tasha came from the Enterprise-D was a battleship, one of the best in the Federation. Capturing that prize would be well worth a few years' effort, no doubt spurred on when the Galaxy Class project was commissioned shortly after the Narendra III.
And like many folks in Star Trek, the Romulans no doubt believe they can alter the future to their benefit
Sorry, Rommies! Time travel doesn't work like that

It was implied that the reason for the cloning program was to infiltrate the Federation, not just to steal the Enterprise-D. And would they really need a clone for something like that? Why couldn't they have just had someone pretend he was a Vulcan to get aboard the Enterprise and steal it?

 

[Mytran]

Stealing the E-D may have just been one of the administration's goals. Imagine the intel that Shinzon-Picard could acquire in the years leading up to his "defection"!

 

[Ghel]

Weird complaint. The point was that it was an alien planet.
Nope.
He is stunned by what he has just seen. If he acted like you want, he'd come off looking like a psychopath. "Fiddle-de-dee, another day, another corpse slumped against me..."

Regarding my argument about the bleached out scene on the alien planet. For me it is a "reality" vs the "mise en scene." Sure, some planet may be closer to its star to the point where it is painful and bleached out to look at. However, in a science fiction film in which suspension of disbelief is key, bleaching the scene was just difficult to look at and essentially kept reminding me I was in a theater. The art and composition of the scene was off-putting rather than compelling. Space is also silent, but it would most likely be similarly off-putting if the entire battle sequence at the end was played soundlessly.

In addition, Picard's hesitation at the end has more to do with pacing than how someone may act in "real life." Sure, in real life seeing someone die in front of you is traumatic and may cause you to "freeze up." However, Trek has been here before, up to and including Riker destroying his own clone (not Thomas) in Up The Long Ladder and Counselor Troi learning the being in command could essentially mean ordering someone to their death without hesitation [Thine own Self]. Yet, here, Picard knows that his entire crew is in peril and he freezes. My argument would not be to have Picard skipping down the hallway singing Tra-la-la, but rather to have Data pull Picard out of the situation more quickly. Picard would look no more psychopathic to continue his mission than Kirk did after kicking Kruge off a cliff.

I know it's not stated in the film, but I like the idea that the Shinzon wasn't the only clone, and that this would be a method of infiltration used (or at least tried) by the Tal Shiar. It just so happened, that like Picard, Shinzon rose to the top of the pile through sheer will, while other clones (like say, Barclay) would have been destroyed if/when the Tal Shiar abandoned their plans and stuffed the clones on Remus.

 

[eyeresist]

Regarding my argument about the bleached out scene on the alien planet. For me it is a "reality" vs the "mise en scene." Sure, some planet may be closer to its star to the point where it is painful and bleached out to look at. However, in a science fiction film in which suspension of disbelief is key, bleaching the scene was just difficult to look at and essentially kept reminding me I was in a theater. The art and composition of the scene was off-putting rather than compelling.

Okay, I get that it did not work for you. But I think that for most viewers it was not an issue (or not the major one).
(And if you think that was bad, have you seen Pitch Black? )

Re Picard freezing, I still think it was a valid and human reaction, but I admit Stewart could have done more to sell the moment. He should have a look of horror on his face, but instead he looks like he's about to fall asleep.

Notice that they specifically state Logan was not the problem, and that Baird is mostly responsible for the crappiness of the film?

I don't want to lay blame with Logan, but I think the things fans most object to in NEM (dune buggy, Picard clone, 2nd bananas not having enough to do, Data killed off) derive from the script, not the way it was directed.

He doesn't hate humans, he hates Romulans! ????

But his actions and what he actually says in the movie contradict this.

 

[Dukhat]

But his actions and what he actually says in the movie contradict this.

Then you must have seen a different movie than I did, because in the Nemesis I saw, there was never any point where Shinzon was trying to be a "good Romulan." If any kind of motivation can be attributed to him, it's that throughout most of the movie he's just trying to prove to himself that he's better than Picard. But most of the time Shinzon is just screwing around and acting selfish.

 

[wayoung]

I don't want to lay blame with Logan, but I think the things fans most object to in NEM (dune buggy, Picard clone, 2nd bananas not having enough to do, Data killed off) derive from the script, not the way it was directed.

I tend to see Nemesis as a failure of pretty much everyone involved. As for the above plot issues with it there is no way to tell where they actually came from. Most of them are key parts of the plot, which suggests they came from Spiner or Berman and everyone else had to work around them. That said, they could be Stewart's, Baird's or Logan's influence as well. Or even the editor - maybe all of that makes sense in the context of the hour of cut scenes. I doubt it, but it is possible. That still brings Baird back as the problem though as he has said the final cut is his cut.

The buggy, if I recall correctly, was demanded by Stewart, and it would be Baird and / or Berman who approved the final product.

My issue isn't with Logan being included in the list of people behind Nemesis's failures, it's with the idea that he is solely responsible for this train wreck of a film, thus absolving everyone else who, in many respects, had much more power over the product than him. Especially when other people involved in the movie name another person (the director in this case) as the source of most of the movies issues.

 

[eyeresist]

I tend to see Nemesis as a failure of pretty much everyone involved. ... That still brings Baird back as the problem though as he has said the final cut is his cut.
... other people involved in the movie name another person (the director in this case) as the source of most of the movies issues.

I watched the video you posted above and make a note of their criticisms of Baird:

-he knew nothing, he didn't even watch a single episode
-he kept calling me Laverne
-he wanted it to stand on its own - didn't want the history to impinge on it - but that doesn't work, our characters have been around for 15 years
-you can't ignore these relationships, how they care about each other & how this manifests itself in the action
-Gene always used to say it was a people show, and he [Baird] didn't really take that into account

One big thing I get from this is that the actors didn't like the director, and felt he didn't care about them enough. But that's a personal thing, and doesn't really matter to the final product. The key criticism is that the characters who weren't Picard or Data didn't get enough attention. But that is largely true of the other TNG films as well. And while Geordi is largely ignored in NEM (you can see his role reduce through each of the films, until he is the least visible member of the cast), Troi does have some crucial scenes in the story.

I wonder if part of the issue is that the previous TNG movies were all made within the TNG "family". The writers and directors of all the previous films had carried over from the TV series, so they were a familiar presence, and knew how to soothe the actor egos. Then in reaction to INS's flop, the producers correctly diagnosed the problem as being too indulgent (the comedy, Picard's love life) and self-referential (the fine points of the Prime Directive), and brought in outside talent to freshen the series and make it more accessible...

In purely commercial terms, I'd say the problem was that NEM was actually more Trekky than INS. Many scenes carry little weight unless you are familiar with the background (all the Troi/Riker scenes, Data's brother, Picard's regrets about not having kids, and the way the Romulans are supposed to be a Big Deal).