Nemesis Clones

[Timo]

I don't know where you are getting that from. It's not in the transcript. Picard is heading for the fleet, as ordered, presumably in order to confront Shinzon in numbers. Then he realises they can't contact the fleet, and basically panics.

Yet why is the fleet there? Because they know what's going on. They know an invisible ship is approaching in order to destroy Earth, because Picard knows this, and his desire to communicate this information to Starfleet is combined with his ability to do so. Furthermore, they know that Shinzon will first try and strike the E-E in order to capture Picard, again because Picard has both the will and the ability to tell Starfleet this; indeed, if not for the E-E factor, there would be no point in trying to stop the invisible ship in the middle of empty space.

This much follows automatically from the plot itself. And the one thing that would make it untrue would be if Picard somehow were unable to communicate with Starfleet before entering the Bassen Rift (but after his escape from Romulus). Yet we never heard of it being impossible to talk to Starfleet from within Romulan space. Indeed, messages from within Romulan space have been reaching Starfleet in a number of episodes previously.

That's a bit beside the point, though. If Picard for some mysterious reason were unable to communicate with Starfleet before the Rift, then there's no role for the Rift - its comms-blocking effect will change nothing then...

That's not what actually happens. Shinzon attacks, giving orders that the Enterprise not be destroyed. Enterprise loses warp drive on the first shot, and is rapidly losing shields. Shinzon then demands Picard surrender.

But does not proceed to capture Picard, merely to have a chat with him so that Picard's heroic crew can repair their ship and continue the fight. This in no way promotes Shinzon's supposed agenda of saving his own life. The E-E isn't about to blow up, necessitating a soft touch; at most she is about to lose shields, at which point it will become trivial for Shinzon to get Picard's blood.

Donatra shows up, and the battle continues until the Romulan ships are disabled. Shinzon still hasn't given up on getting Picard

He never does - he just puts the goal on inexplicable hiatus all too frequently.

Should we really think that Shinzon is motivated by sparing Picard's crew? Or by making Picard think that he will spare the Captain's crew? Neither makes sense: Shinzon wants to kill'em all, and Picard becoming more docile from lies is irrelevant because he can be captured regardless of docility.

That doesn't make sense. The presence of a dozen Starfleet ships would obviously make a difference to the battle. Despite its advantages, the Scimitar does suffer damage and lose shields. Against a fleet, it would be on the defensive and might eventually be worn down and defeated.

But the Scimitar does not lose anything of worth when fighting three ships. Her cloak remains impenetrable except when lowered as a ruse. Shinzon could disengage from a fleet at any time of his choosing and proceed to Earth, or concentrate his fire on Picard's shields, capture the Captain and then proceed to Earth; his firepower is that massive, as shown in the early stages of the fight.

Or is his advantage due to Bassen Rift conditions weakening Picard's shields, perhaps? That would make the balance of events a bit more plausible...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[eyeresist]

Yet why is the fleet there? Because they know what's going on. They know an invisible ship is approaching in order to destroy Earth

So what? They don't actually do anything except sit and wait. They won't act unless Picard tells them the situation has changed.

This much follows automatically from the plot itself. And the one thing that would make it untrue would be if Picard somehow were unable to communicate with Starfleet before entering the Bassen Rift (but after his escape from Romulus). Yet we never heard of it being impossible to talk to Starfleet from within Romulan space.

Yes, the E-E can communicate Starfleet from Romulan space. That's how Picard knows to meet with the fleet. But Picard can't communicate with Starfleet when he needs urgent assistance, because Shinzon has timed his attack with entering the nebula.

But does not proceed to capture Picard, merely to have a chat with him so that Picard's heroic crew can repair their ship and continue the fight.

He can't capture Picard, can he? The beaming out trick won't work again. The only way to get Picard is to threaten him into surrendering, or send a boarding party. The second option is uncertain of success and puts Picard's life at risk.

He never does - he just puts the goal on inexplicable hiatus all too frequently.

He doesn't. Allowing for the distractions of battle, he demands Picard's surrender twice and also sends a boarding party to capture him.

Should we really think that Shinzon is motivated by sparing Picard's crew? Or by making Picard think that he will spare the Captain's crew?

Of course not. But how else can Shinzon get Picard to surrender?

Picard becoming more docile from lies is irrelevant because he can be captured regardless of docility.

He can't. The beaming out trick won't work again, which leaves convincing Picard to surrender, or taking him by force. The second option risks accidentally killing Picard.

But the Scimitar does not lose anything of worth when fighting three ships. Her cloak remains impenetrable except when lowered as a ruse.

The Scimitar's shields are down to 70%. During a battle with larger forces, that could be whittled down to 0%.

Shinzon could disengage from a fleet at any time of his choosing and proceed to Earth, or concentrate his fire on Picard's shields, capture the Captain and then proceed to Earth; his firepower is that massive, as shown in the early stages of the fight.

If Shinzon disengages and goes to Earth, he will die due to not getting Picard's DNA. If he pummels the Enterprise until it is totally crippled, he risks killing Picard.
(And his firepower isn't that massive. His advantage is being able to fire while cloaked.)

 

[Timo]

So what? They don't actually do anything except sit and wait. They won't act unless Picard tells them the situation has changed.

But the situation has not changed. Picard is still being pursued and harassed by Shinzon's supership, as was true from the get-go. If the fleet isn't protecting him, it's apparently not supposed to.

Yes, the E-E can communicate Starfleet from Romulan space. That's how Picard knows to meet with the fleet. But Picard can't communicate with Starfleet when he needs urgent assistance, because Shinzon has timed his attack with entering the nebula.

Picard needs urgent assistance from the moment he leaves Romulan orbit. There's no "timing" involved beyond that.

He can't capture Picard, can he? The beaming out trick won't work again.

Why not? It always works unless the shields are up, and Shinzon has the power to make the shields go down. This is the very reason there is a pause in the fight - Picard has already lost shields ("Get the shields online, Geordi!").

Allowing for the distractions of battle, he demands Picard's surrender twice and also sends a boarding party to capture him.

Which all counts as insane stalling, against the background of him having the ability to remove the shields from around Picard at will, and of him insanely having no real concern about Picard's safety during said shield-removal (the bit where he fires at the bridge).

With Picard, we can pretend he is not insane if we accept that he has communicated his plea for help to Starfleet before entering the Bassen Rift; it's not much of a pretense to make. With Shinzon, pretending that he is not insane takes massive effort, mostly concentrating on him being "internally torn" in some halfway sane manner and for that reason not proceeding with the full use of the resources at his disposal.

The Scimitar's shields are down to 70%. During a battle with larger forces, that could be whittled down to 0%.

That's actually 170%, as the ship has two layers of shielding. And it is 70% before the ramming and 70% after the ramming, so it seems a lot of work to get it down to even 150%! Seven helpers instead of two doesn't make the math work quite yet...

If Shinzon disengages and goes to Earth, he will die due to not getting Picard's DNA. If he pummels the Enterprise until it is totally crippled, he risks killing Picard.

But since Shinzon himself is concerned with neither issue (he stalls and stalls again with Picard's blood, and fires at his face with abandon), and since Shinzon himself is not vital to the Scimitar's mission of annihilation, this is not much consolation.

(And his firepower isn't that massive. His advantage is being able to fire while cloaked.)

He collapses the shields of the E-E in a matter of seconds originally. He kills one of the warbirds with deceptive ease, and cripples the other when Donatra is feeling confident about her ship's condition. But he might well have tactical trouble bringing his firepower to bear on any single ship in a fleet engagement - this seems to be the big reason he doesn't just shrug off the Romulans.

In light of this, the sensible way (the way to deal with a sensible Shinzon) would certainly be for Starfleet to protect Picard, by swarming their ships around the E-E. Yet they don't do that - they stop and wait elsewhere. There must be reasons for that, and those are easily postulated: fear of crossing the border, an act that would launch the very war they are trying to avoid by intercepting Shinzon; knowledge that while seven ships wait to escort Picard from the safe point onwards, fifty logically wait at Earth to do the final fighting; and the false assumption that Shinzon is sensible, and would already have attacked Picard if fast enough to catch up with him, rather than senselessly waiting for the Rift.

Timo Saloniemi