MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by nafeasonto, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    Ok since BTS info is now suddenly invalid what will be necessary for MA to acknowledge Adira's Gender?

    Cool, me and Will74205 have already had our debate in the talk pages.
     
  2. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    We did, the same way we do for the thousand of other characters: by observation of secondary sexual characteristics and pronoun use. See my post above, i.e.:

     
  3. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    Did you not read Emilia's post? To reiterate You can't tell gender just by looking at someone.
     
  4. dahj

    dahj Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But the admin post on the talk page also says you'll be removing that from the sidebar, right?

    This is a rule which hasn't been enforced so far for any male or female character, as far as I can tell there are no similarly "acceptable" sources being cited anywhere where male or female is used on the site.

    It's also a rule that hasn't been enforced in another similar case for starship classes which also aren't stated on screen but used liberally in the text area for various starships as demonstrated by others here.

    Do you not realize how it looks when you're very strict about enforcing that rule for the only non-binary character, but very liberal in its application or lack thereof otherwise?

    If it is indeed an important rule that the editorial team of MA feels very strongly about then are you going to go through the 5000 uses of male/ female on the site and verify that they are all properly sourced in the acceptable canon and remove those which are not?
     
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  5. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Let it.
     
  6. Spike730

    Spike730 Captain Captain

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    So, the use of "he" or "she" allows to use male and female in articles but if a character explicitly states to prefer "they/them" it's not enough to assume "non-binary"?
     
  7. Awesome Possum

    Awesome Possum Let's Fly Moderator

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    What else could someone referring to themselves as they/them mean?
     
  8. Fateor

    Fateor Captain Captain

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    That they don't consider themselves to be a singular entity, which given she has a trill symbiot with another active consciousnesses is an actual, if unlikely given BTS, possibility.

    It's still pedantic of the memory alpha people however given we do have BTS info.
     
  9. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    @Renegade54 I like I said in another post
    Emphasis mine. Yes anybody can use they/them pronouns even they're cis, But Adira's case when its been shown and told over and over again that They're Nonbinary It isnt unreasonable to assume.
     
  10. cooleddie74

    cooleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It's what they are and the two actors playing Adira and Gray have chosen to be referred to as non-binary. Again: how is this even a debate? Just call them what they ask to be called and get on with your lives.
     
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  11. cultcross

    cultcross We get locked down, but we get up again Moderator

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    That possibility was excluded by the dialogue - they specifically mention they have always felt that way while we have seen a previous host who was male. Something I was glad of given the discussion online about the non binary identity being "natural for a Trill" etc. The episode was explicit it was the human that was non binary.

    Exactly. You can 'default' to male or female in MA's world but you need special evidence to prove yourself anything else. Which is the exact problem we had with this to begin with.
     
  12. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Then I was being overly sensitive, and to @dahj I apologize.

    You're obviously free to beg to differ. I'm *telling you outright* that I wasn't skirting anything; I'm here to answer questions. I may be guilty of missing something or answering insufficiently, but I'm *not* deliberately avoiding anything.

    Yes, apparently you do. Why was this not an issue with the thousands of other character pages until Adira? If you want to be consistent, if you want to educate and not scold, you (or anyone else) could have brought up the point on MA at any point in the past, and we could've/would've had a discussion about the subject, and seen the error of our ways (i.e. we kept doing things the way we've always done them). Cisgender male geeks (i.e. me) tend to be clueless about some things (just ask my wife). With nobody to bring up the point, we did what we've always done. I don't know the gender of most of the editors on MA, but I *do* know there are both male and female editors. I don't know who (if anyone) is trans, or gay, or, black, or white, or whatever; I *do* know a few that are male, or female, or from Canada, or from the UK. *Nobody* ever raised the issue of gendering people by observation before Adira, among all the editors over the years, or even among the readers.

    Once the issue *was* raised, we *did* realize we were being myopic (you can read that as bigoted, or transphobic, or whatever aspersions you care to cast) by assuming gender by observation (sometimes it takes a 2x4) and so we *removed gender from all of the sidebars*. But then we were accused of erasing, and overreacting, and trying to hide things, and more.
     
  13. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I'm sorry, what's BTS?

    We've asked for a production source to post something (Twitter, Facebook, email, whatever) stating writer's/director's intent. And no, startrek.com isn't good enough for this purpose. Please believe me, we'd really like this to be resolved ASAP to everyone's satisfaction (is that even possible?) within the current guidelines of MA. We really wish it had been made clear (somehow) on-screen. Once we have that acknowledgement/confirmation, we'll change the article text "Adira Tal was a non-binary Human..." and eliminate gender from *all* the sidebars again.
     
  14. mdtauk

    mdtauk Commander Red Shirt

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    @Renegade54 Initially listing the character of Adira as Female, was ok to do (not the actor playing Adira). But once the Character explicitly said, they have never felt like a She or a Her - is the moment you update the article, and specify the scene and episode where the character revealed this.

    After that, unless and until the character changes how they feel, then the article's sidebar should list Gender as Non-binary - no debate, no equivocations, no reservations, and no provisions.

    Removing Gender doesn't need to happen. It is ok to list a Gender based on the pronouns used, but if a canon source contradicts this, just updated the article with the corrected information.
     
  15. dahj

    dahj Vice Admiral Admiral

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    But you haven't kept doing things like you've always done them, that's the issue.

    Adira is very clearly non-binary, yet you require them to state it on screen to acknowledge it while you haven't required that of any other character up until now.
     
  16. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    Behind the scenes
     
  17. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    I did see Emilia's post; I'm replying to posts in order. Please see my response to Emilia.
     
  18. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    Don't you see how this is the same cop-out as before? Rather than just keep Nonbinary on Adira's page, we just go back in circles again?

    It became a issue when you decided to give Adira different treatment in regards to what was shown on screen, For most characters its just assumed that they identified from birth the way that do now, but usually isnt shown screen. In Adira's case it was point blank said they never felt like a "she or a her". But all of sudden on screen canon info is require before the MA mods can accept it? How convenient.
     
  19. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Correct... see my earlier post.

    Correct, it hasn't been... and upon reflection, we've seen/decided/understood that we were wrong about that. That's a big reason for removing gender from the sidebar for all characters. It's the same reason for not having serial number, or pet, or many other variables that have been added over time: we only know that definitively for a small number of characters. The problem with the gender field, though, is that it's been assumed (extrapolated? inferred? guessed at?) for almost every character, where those other fields were only filled in when known definitively.

    Starship classes are a different beast, and I've addressed those in a previous post. And if we were strict about enforcing it for Adira, using the same criteria as for other characters, they would've been labelled "Female", which we knew to be incorrect... or not labelled at all. We haven't been any more strict about enforcing the gender on Adira; it was "Female" (based on observation and pronoun use) and after the conversation with Stamets, "Non-binary". And it continues to be "Non-binary", until we once again remove gender from the sidebar.

    I've said this previously, but please understand that our spoiler policy didn't allow us to label Adira as non-binary until it was revealed in the episode, despite what was written or spoken about in interviews, etc.
     
  20. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Renegade, the relative virtues of your responses not necessarily withstanding, I want to thank you for caring enough about the situation to create an account here and join this discussion when (I assume) you were under no obligation to do so. Even if your answers ultimately don't satisfy anyone...and I hope that won't be the case...I appreciate your coming here to provide your perspective. From my perspective you've been under fire pretty much since you identified yourself, and I'm sorry you haven't received a warmer reception.
     
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