MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by nafeasonto, Jan 9, 2021.

  1. cultcross

    cultcross We get locked down, but we get up again Moderator

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    Sure - you seemed to be arguing that MA cannot refer to Adira as non binary because it's not canonical enough for you (as per the Talk page), but then you also said that as soon as Sanctuary aired, MA changed the page entirely too reflect that they were non binary. So I'm confused. Are you saying that the changes were wrong and should have been left as female? And if they weren't, why is there a problem here at all?
     
  2. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    If that's you're only example of the "double standard", then your argument is pretty flimsy. You *are* right about the usage of mirror universe, and there's been multiple long discussions about the use of the term. Bottom line, that one boils down to not having a better name to call it. As far as the Kelvin timeline, we probably *would've* used that, expect there *was* an in-universe reference to "alternate timeline", so that's what was used, as in-universe always supersedes production material.

    It speaks nothing to my (or our) opinion of non-binary people; please don't put words into our mouths,(or thoughts or opinions into our heads). I don't presume to know what you think, so don't presume that of me.
     
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  3. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Ahh, I see. The intent is to remove *all* gender from sidebars again, eventually, since we really don't know that definitively for many characters. That's what I was referring to.
     
  4. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    So, if Kelvin Timeline is called "alternate timeline" because that's what it was referred to on screen, why was the Mirror Universe never called "alternate universe"? That is what it was referred to repeatedly on screen on DS9.
     
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  5. cultcross

    cultcross We get locked down, but we get up again Moderator

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    The implication isn't that you are being deliberately or consciously discriminatory, I'm sure the intention is to uphold editorial integrity, but the fact remains that you are willing to apply higher standards to the canon status of someone being non binary than you apply to male or female. In your standards, a man or a woman "looks like a duck" and that's enough, but a gender non conforming person must prove their identity to you. The result of that policy is discriminatory, whether you mean it to be or not.
     
  6. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    In this case @Renegade54 the question that needs to be answered, Is why is Adira being held to higher standard than every other character in terms of "proving" their identity?
     
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  7. Spike730

    Spike730 Captain Captain

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    I suppose the decent thing would be to use "non-binary" in the first sentence due to BTS stuff and the canonical use of their/them pronouns. Just like you use BTS class designations in starship articles or female/male due to pronoun use in other character articles.
     
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  8. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    OK, I understand... it may have not been clear, but Adira's page, when it was originally created, read "Adira Tal was a female Human who...". In fact, iirc, we didn't even know that Adira was bound to a Trill symbiont, so the page was at "Adira" and the first sentence read "Adira was a female Human who..." and all the pronouns were she/her. This was based purely on observation, although we knew from publicity that Adira was non-binary. We figured the writers would reveal the correct gender (non-binary) at some point, but our spoiler policy doesn't let us reveal stuff until it's shown in an episode on-screen. That's the same reason that even if we know ahead of time that, say, a character is going to die, we don't change their status until the episode in which they actually die. Not exactly the same, but close enough.

    Along the way, the first sentence was modified to say "Adira Tal was a Human who...", removing female from the text. I'm not sure who did it or when, but keep in mind MA is a wiki, and that page got lots of attention from its inception. I'd have to go back to the page history to see. The sidebar, though, remained as "Gender: Female" for whatever reason; the gender *probably* should have been removed from the sidebar as well at that point, but I don't think it was. Eventually, when Sanctuary aired, we changed the sidebar to read "Gender: Non-binary". That was based purely on the background info and was a bending of our rules so we could both be accurate and meet the desires/wishes/needs/demands of the LGBTQ community, of which we were both aware and sensitive.

    "Non-binary" never made it into the first sentence, though, for whatever reason, and we decided to hold off on adding it until an acceptable canon resource confirmed it, leaving it in the sidebar as a compromise. Please understand that when I say "acceptable canon resource" I'm referring to our resource policy, not "what's acceptable to the LGBTQ community" or "what's acceptable to Renegade54" or "what's acceptable to the MA admins" or "what's acceptable to trans/enby/homophobes" (ok, so we'd probably opt instead for "what's unacceptable to trans/enby/homophobes" instead).

    Clear? tl;dr?
     
  9. dahj

    dahj Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And MA has been fine with those guesses so far, but are now going so far as to discard official sources explicitly stating someone's gender as not being sufficient proof. Does that seem fair to you?

    To put it bluntly, your policy so far seems to have been tiddies = female, no tiddies = male. And to be fair, it worked because Star Trek hasn't exactly been at the forefront of gender and sexual diversity, but you gotta realize this is not the way to go about these things these days. So maybe instead of trying to somehow extend that and demanding those outside those two groups need to submit a certificate on screen to be acknowledged, maybe rethink it altogether?

    The way they talked about themself when coming out to Stamets.

    Again, if you were previously fine guessing without anything on screen and no publicity stuff, why are you so against acknowledging stuff that is explicitly officially confirmed by production staff and actors themselves?
     
  10. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    If I understand the talk page before correctly, having the gender in the side bar for any character is something that happened fairly recently in M-A and hadn't existed before.
     
  11. Renegade54

    Renegade54 Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    Yeah, you got me there. :) I'd have to go through a whole slew of old forum and talk page discussions to answer that fully and properly. I *do* know it was discussed ad infinitum. I'm guessing that when the mirror universe was first named on MA, way before DS9 aired, it was what they came up with, and it was never changed after DS9 aired? Or perhaps it was referred to as "mirror universe" somewhere else (production source, another web site, etc.) and we adopted the usage. I also do know that the canon and resource policies were a *lot* looser in the early days; a lot of what we now consider non-canon or apocryphal information was eliminated from the body of articles (and in most cases, moved to background sections). Since MA launched, the policies and guidelines have been fleshed out and tightened up immensely, although it's often hard to walk the line between too many rules and not enough. You'd be amazed at how often someone makes an edit and says "there's no rule saying I can't do that"... and then others say "Memory Alpha has too many damn rules! and the admins are assholes!!" Well, yeah, sometimes we are... :P
     
  12. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Shouldn't all (joined) Trill be a they?
     
  13. Spike730

    Spike730 Captain Captain

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    DS9 aired from 1993-1999. Memory Alpha was founded in 2003. ;-)
     
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  14. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    I remember the '12 Great Houses' of the Klingon Empire being mentioned on the wiki despite there being no canon source for that, long before (I think it was as old as the page itself) it was made canon on Discovery (I brought it up in the talk page and it was removed a few months before DSC aired)

    I don't know if Discovery took that info from Memory-Alpha not knowing it was wrong, or if both got it from the same non-canon source.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  15. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    So... can't we make exceptions? esp in cases like these where there's alot BTS material that backs it up?
     
  16. mdtauk

    mdtauk Commander Red Shirt

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    I don't think it has been established that the Symbionts have any kind of gender, and that it is the Hosts which have a gender identity.
     
  17. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I was meaning past hosts + current host.

    Even if they are all the same gender.

    More than one = They.
     
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  18. Court_Vince

    Court_Vince Commander Red Shirt

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    Uh... No? since the past hosts are usually dead.
     
  19. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Admiral Admiral

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    Joined Trill have always gone by the gender identity of the current host in canon.
     
  20. mdtauk

    mdtauk Commander Red Shirt

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    One of the problems with the changes in Memory Alpha, was one of Gender erasure. The decision to remove the Gender section on these pages, is denying Adira's character the gender identity they feel they have.

    It felt like rather than accept Adira is who they are, the admins would rather remove ALL gender information. This seems like an overreaction.

    I would say keep the Gender identifier there on the pages, and if there is genuine ambiguity with certain characters, for example The Cogenitor from the Enterprise episode (a third gender for that species) and Soren from TNG's The Outcast (a non-binary mono gender, but the character identifies as female)
    Then that can be a discussion for admin and possibly Transgendered Trek fans like Jessie Gender @jessiegender to be more inclusive and open to non-conformity.

    It should be a chance to be more broad and diverse, whilst also celebrating unique (for trek) representation.

    The problem will always be an unwillingness to accept differences, or trying to ignore it, and choose to pretend it doesn't exist
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021