MemoryAlpha editor refuses to change Adira's Gender to "Non-Binary"

[Awesome Possum]

What about people who detransition?

Depends on why they detransition, the vast majority do because they faced social rejection from family and friends. Most later go on to transition again. I'm not sure why you're bringing this up if you aren't transphobic, because this is a major argument that they think is a gotcha question. It isn't, they just don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Also you're confusing sexual identity with gender identity. They're two entirely different things, you have a really poor understanding of this. Likely due to what you're being told to think and now parrot to us.

"Whine"? Why are you being offensive? Did say something about you? Did I call you a name? I don't whine. Plus What I am saying is not for myself but mostly for some of my friends who had to suffer being labeled because of whom they were seen dating.

I'll give you an example. A friend of mine, did some experimenting with homosexuality when he was a lot younger and someone used that to make his girlfriend break up with him. Do you think that's normal or is he the victim of some kind of abuse?

What? The experimenting or his girlfriend breaking up with him? Experimenting is normal, people sometimes take time figuring themselves out. That's natural and any shame associated with it is entirely social and harmful. If he had sex with a guy and wasn't into it, then he probably isn't gay. He just had sex with another person. A single act doesn't change your sexuality. His girlfriend breaking up with him is just homophobia and shitty behavior.

I'm not sure how your friend's experience has anything to do with anything though.

But yes it is a whine. It's not an argument or an opinion worth considering. You don't want to be called cis or straight? Then what are you? What would you call yourself?

Isn't that what we're being asked to avoid?

So we should halt human language for the sake of a few homophobes and transphobes who hate being called what they describe themselves as? That seems unreasonable.

 

[Extrocomp]

Depends on why they detransition, the vast majority do because they faced social rejection from family and friends. Most later go on to transition again. I'm not sure why you're bringing this up if you aren't transphobic, because this is a major argument that they think is a gotcha question. It isn't, they just don't know what the fuck they're talking about. Also you're confusing sexual identity with gender identity. They're two entirely different things, you have a really poor understanding of this. Likely due to what you're being told to think and now parrot to us.

I was just curious that's all.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I was just curious that's all.

You have the entire internet for that. All you're doing is using every single move in the beginner's guide to internet transphobia while claiming you aren't transphobic, which is also a move. I see this shit daily.

 

[Sci]

There are women in the red pill groups too I find that odd

There are always a small minority of self-hating members of oppressed groups who try to curry favor with the groups that want to oppress them. The fact that Uncle Toms exist does not mean much.

Maybe that's because your perception of these groups is wrong.

Nope.

 

[Therin of Andor]

So we should halt human language for the sake of a few homophobes and transphobes who hate being called what they describe themselves as? That seems unreasonable.

Not what I meant at all. I thought we were being asked by the LGBTQI+ Community to quit trying to label others ourselves and accept the labels and pronouns that people ask to be described as. That's not halting human language, it's asking us all to be more considerate.

 

[Extrocomp]

You have the entire internet for that. All you're doing is using every single move in the beginner's guide to internet transphobia while claiming you aren't transphobic, which is also a move. I see this shit daily.

Maybe I'm just too lazy to read through dozens of online articles about detransitioning (I did read the Wikipedia page though) and thought it would be okay to ask an actual transgender person. But if you think asking a question makes me transphobic, then I promise not to ask you any more questions.

 

[Sci]

Maybe I'm just too lazy to read through dozens of online articles about detransitioning (I did read the Wikipedia page though) and thought it would be okay to ask an actual transgender person. But if you think asking a question makes me transphobic, then I promise not to ask you any more questions.

Asking questions does not make you transphobic.

Asking questions with a particular rhetorical intent of denigrating or denying the legitimacy of transgender and nonbinary people and/or their equal rights, makes you transphobic.

 

[Extrocomp]

Asking questions does not make you transphobic.

Asking questions with a particular rhetorical intent of denigrating or denying the legitimacy of transgender and nonbinary people and/or their equal rights, makes you transphobic.

I wasn't denying the legitimacy of transgender people. I was questioning whether the statement that people are transgender at birth is correct.

 

[Sci]

I wasn't denying the legitimacy of transgender people. I was questioning whether the statement that people are transgender at birth is correct.

I mean, I don't particularly care because in my view, if someone decides that the gender identity they were assigned at birth is wrong for them and they want to change it, then they have a right to change it and to have their new gender identity be respected whether or not it was "always" wrong for them. But most of the transgender people I know do insist that the gender identity they were assigned at birth was always wrong for them, and who the fuck am I to question that?

Like, who the fuck are you to question that? It's their lived experience, not yours.

Edited to add: To be clear, "questioning whether the statement that people are transgender at birth is correct" is itself a form of questioning the legitimacy of transgender people.

 

[Discofan]

....
But yes it is a whine. It's not an argument or an opinion worth considering. You don't want to be called cis or straight? Then what are you? What would you call yourself?
...

Me? I am straight but this may surprise you but this wasn't about me. So no, it's not a whine because it's not even about myself. I am perfectly happy the way I am and also lucky that society isn't discriminating against my kind. At least when it comes to sexual Identity. I've been discriminated against because of my origins but that's another story and I definitely don't whine about it because I've won that battle.

Anyway, this discussion is leading nowhere.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I wasn't denying the legitimacy of transgender people. I was questioning whether the statement that people are transgender at birth is correct.

Brains have been dissected postmortem.

Similar formations have been noticed differing from cis gender folks.

Distinct genetic markers have been identified.

 

[Extrocomp]

Like, who the fuck are you to question that? It's their lived experience, not yours.

Edited to add: To be clear, "questioning whether the statement that people are transgender at birth is correct" is itself a form of questioning the legitimacy of transgender people.

No it isn't. A person who decides they are transgender at a certain point in their life is just as legitimate as a person who always felt they were in the wrong body.

And the best way to learn is to ask questions. All I wanted to know is how the concept of detransitioning fits with the idea that people are transgender from birth. Now I'm getting attacked for it.

 

[Discofan]

Brains have been dissected postmortem.

Similar formations have been noticed differing from cis gender folks.

Distinct genetic markers have been identified.

Not everything is about genetics. A large part of what we are is owed to education and how we were raised.

 

[Sci]

No it isn't. A person who decides they are transgender at a certain point in their life is just as legitimate as a person who always felt they were in the wrong body.

So what was the point of asking your question then? What rhetorical purpose were you trying to accomplish?

 

[Extrocomp]

So what was the point of asking your question then? What rhetorical purpose were you trying to accomplish?

There was no rhetorical purpose. I just wanted to learn.

 

[Sci]

There was no rhetorical purpose. I just wanted to learn.

You have so poisoned the well on this topic that I do not trust that you were asking questions in good faith.

 

[Extrocomp]

You have so poisoned the well on this topic that I do not trust that you were asking questions in good faith.

You mean the fact that I used the term "SJW" earlier in the thread and talked about cancel culture before I discovered that those topics are taboo around here? That's what you call poisoning the well? Because anyone who doesn't like cancel culture and has a word for the people who engage in it absolutely must be a transphobic troll and never asks questions in good faith?

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

You mean the fact that I used the term "SJW" earlier in the thread and talked about cancel culture before I discovered that those topics are taboo around here? That's what you call poisoning the well? Because anyone who doesn't like cancel culture and has a word for the people who engage in it absolutely must be a transphobic troll and never asks questions in good faith?

Stupid terms like "sjw" and "cancel culture" should be taboo everywhere along with "woke" " box ticking" and "Antifa".
I have no problem debating the politics around them but I have never met anyone IRL or online who uses those terms and isnt trying to be antagonistic or is coming from a neutral place and just asking honest questions

 

[Sci]

You mean the fact that I used the term "SJW" earlier in the thread and talked about cancel culture before I discovered that those topics are taboo around here? That's what you call poisoning the well? Because anyone who doesn't like cancel culture and has a word for the people who engage in it absolutely must be a transphobic troll and never asks questions in good faith?

You used the rhetoric of the bigoted right-wing, rhetoric designed to de-legitimize holding bigots accountable for their behavior and to de-legitimize people who fight for equality. You have defended the toxic misogynistic community known as "incels," you have tried to pressure nonbinary people into subjecting themselves to "debates" about the legitimacy of their existence vis-a-vis the Adira Tal bullshit, and you have tried to claim that sexual objectification is harmless.

Nothing about your behavior in this thread or elsewhere demonstrates good faith to me. If that upsets you, change your behavior and you can earn some trust from others.

 

[Extrocomp]

I'm done with this thread. I'll try not to judge the entire transgender community and their allies based on the way I've been treated here.