Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[theenglish]

I'm trying to figure out why you said both these things that seem to directly contradict each other. The former statement is obviously bogus (for one thing, it overlooks that Captain Marvel did quite well), and the latter statement appears to be debunking the former (as well it should).

The first sentence used the words "seems" and was a response of a previous list which stated that nobody wanted to see certain movies--and nearly all of those movies had non-white and/or non-male leads. The second post was a response to a follow up post where I stated my opinion that I don't really agree that that is the reason those films weren't as well received or as successful. Captain Marvel, Shang-Chi, and Black Panther were all really well received movies, for example.

 

[Jayson1]

Someone check the weather report in Hell…we agree on something!



WandaVision was wonderful.

And I will add, Agatha All Along was a great follow-up. One of my top Marvel TV shows.

I agree on both accounts. My only argument against the show is I wonder if it would have been better for the MCU overall to have Wanda star in a movie instead of a tv show. I mean that could still happen but if it had happen back then they might have put a dent in any of that Marvel fatigue that set in. I think I could make the same argument for Loki and a more action adventure version of She Hulk.

 

[Jayson1]

...I was about to say, Iman Vellani's Ms. Marvel was easily one of the best parts of that film. She's hard not to like. But I'm guessing you're referring to Brie Larson's Captain Marvel instead. It also didn't help that the writers/actors strike happened right before that release, making it impossible to do the usual press buildup.


Plus it was also clearly a stealth sequel to The Incredible Hulk without the Hulk (I'm guessing thanks to Universal).

Everyone loves Ms Marvel who saw the show and even people who don't like the character still like Iman Vellani. It's a real shame her show wasn't a big hit. I think it would have been if the MCU overall was in a better place when it came out. People would have been more open to something a little more different at the time.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I agree on both accounts. My only argument against the show is I wonder if it would have been better for the MCU overall to have Wanda star in a movie instead of a tv show. I mean that could still happen but if it had happen back then they might have put a dent in any of that Marvel fatigue that set in. I think I could make the same argument for Loki and a more action adventure version of She Hulk.

Not sure what we got on WandaVision and Loki would work as films. So hard pass if it means sacrificing those stories.

 

[JD]

I don't think it is either. But I do understand why he probably thinks that.

Well, we can tell from his avatar that he is obviously racist and sexist as hell, so that probably also has a lot to do with the things he's saying.

 

[Captaindemotion]

This could have been an interesting parallel universe. Make up your own Doctor Who?, No, Doctor Doom, joke:

David Tennant Says He Had His ‘Eye On’ the Role of Reed Richards In ‘The Fantastic Four’ Before Pedro Pascal Was Cast: ‘They’ve Gone In a Different Direction’

David Tennant says he had his 'eye on' the role of Reed Richards in Marvel's 'Fantastic Four.'

variety.com

 

[Jayson1]

Not sure what we got on WandaVision and Loki would work as films. So hard pass if it means sacrificing those stories.

I agree. That would be the rub. On one hand you erase two good tv shows we know are good in hopes that they might make a movie that is just as good if not better.

 

[Nerys Myk]

This could have been an interesting parallel universe. Make up your own Doctor Who?, No, Doctor Doom, joke:

David Tennant Says He Had His ‘Eye On’ the Role of Reed Richards In ‘The Fantastic Four’ Before Pedro Pascal Was Cast: ‘They’ve Gone In a Different Direction’

David Tennant says he had his 'eye on' the role of Reed Richards in Marvel's 'Fantastic Four.'

variety.com

A tall thin Reed Richards? Nah,

 

[Jayson1]

Well, we can tell from his avatar that he is obviously racist and sexist as hell, so that probably also has a lot to do with the things he's saying.

Maybe but even then I do see the logic, even if I think it is a flawed argument in pointing out the success of those one shows as examples to make his point. I just think my argument, that I mentioned as to why those other movies flopped is better. Granted I am biased into supporting my own ideas, what with me being the one who came up with them.

 

[Captaindemotion]

A tall thin Reed Richards? Nah,

Stretching credulity?

Ironically, it’s his DW predecessor whose catchphrase was “fantastic!”

 

[Jayson1]

I think Tennant would make a great Reed Richards. At least he would respect the character enough to shave any beard he might have.

 

[Anwar]

Everyone loves Ms Marvel who saw the show and even people who don't like the character still like Iman Vellani. It's a real shame her show wasn't a big hit. I think it would have been if the MCU overall was in a better place when it came out. People would have been more open to something a little more different at the time.

Her Emmy award winning show, you mean?

 

[1001001]

Not sure what we got on WandaVision and Loki would work as films. So hard pass if it means sacrificing those stories.

I agree, both of those shows were perfectly suited for TV series.

 

[Jayson1]

Her Emmy award winning show, you mean?

Got bad ratings though. I am not insulting the show. I liked it. It's just wasn't a hit.

 

[StarTrek1701]

I don't disagree with what you've said. People didn't stop going to see Marvel movies until after Quantumania. And even then there was GOTGIII which was a hit. The drop really started with The Marvels, but I don't think it had anything to do with quality--people just wanted something else.

My original point was that 1701 pointed to movies that had non-white male protagonists as being the reason people stopped going to Marvel movies and I don't think that's the case.

Resorting to lying now, are you? Where the fuck did I say that?
I explicitly stated the non-white males or women got the worst scripts from Marvel itself, and that's why they lost viewers.

EDIT: just for you if you missed it

Because those characters got the short end of the stick from Marvel themselves.
Establish Scarlet Witch as a favorite character, then ruin her first with WandaVision, then DS:MoM.
Establish Captain Marvel as a great character, don't even give her a proper sequel.
Try to establish She-Hulk but hire writers that have zero experience in writing court room drama, the show runner herself admitted she never read even a page of the comics.
Try to jam in Riri Williams in Wakanda, rather than focus on Wakanda itself, then delay her debut programming by two whole years.
Marvel is the one that treated them with disrespect, I am just pointing it out.

 

[Jayson1]

Resorting to lying now, are you? Where the fuck did I say that?
I explicitly stated the non-white males or women got the worst scripts from Marvel itself, and that's why they lost viewers.

EDIT: just for you if you missed it

Not sure if I would go that far. Ant Man 3, Love and Thunder, Dr Strange 2 didn't exactly have great writing. I will say Disney does seem to have a bigger issue than other studios when it comes to creating interesting non-white leads. I don't know if it's because the corporate suits are even more meddling than other places but I do know that if I would come up with a list of my favorite non-white characters over the last 20 something years almost none of them would come from a Disney product unless your sort of cheating and calling It's Always Sunny in Philly or What we Do in the Shadows a Disney product. I mean I know technically they are but FX doesn't feel like real Disney and neither does Searchlight Pictures. I

 

[StarTrek1701]

No, they just didn't want to tell stories about the same group of characters forever. That's lazy.

What's lazier is thinking they can put whatever character(s) in however bad of a script and people are gonna lap it up.

Thor 4 was better than Thors 1 and 2

You're a forced contrarian, but that's fine.

They were both fine, certain folks just had silly ideas about Dr Strange 2 like how it would guest star Hugh Jackman and have Strange merge the MCU with the FoX-men universe. That nonsense was never happening.

Dunno where the fuck you're getting that idea, most fans wanted a proper DS Vs Mordo story, but they jammed Scarlet Witch in it as a villain with the worst storyline ever.

She wasn't a "favorite" until WandaVision, so you're wrong right off the bat.

How much you wanna bet you are 100% wrong and I am 100% right?

She-Hulk's comics rarely if every have anything to do with Court Room Dramas, if you read them.

Argument for argument's sake. I explicitly stated about what the showrunner wanted, but they didn't care about the character.
As I said, argumet for argument's sake.

So just like they jammed the Punisher into Daredevil Season 2 so they got give him a substandard show later?

Yes.

No they didn't, they said Widow was a useless forced character in IM2.

If someone can rewrite history and ignore the truth given to him on a golden platter, it's you. Bravo

They stopped focusing on Forced White Male Supremacy, that angered certain people.

Blade cancelled, Iron Heart dumped off, Wonder Man delayed.
If anything it's Forced non-White Male Supremacy that's crashed and burned.

 

[StarTrek1701]

Not sure if I would go that far. Ant Man 3, Love and Thunder, Dr Strange 2 didn't exactly have great writing. I will say Disney does seem to have a bigger issue than other studios when it comes to creating interesting non-white leads.

They don't need to create interesting non white leads because they already have interesting non white leads.
For the MCU era they have Black Panther, War-Machine, Nick Fury, Shang-Chi, Photon.
From the comics they have Blade, Luke Cage (MCU too).
Just need good scripts, even great characters like Thor or Captain Marvel can crash and burn with bad scripts.

 

[Jayson1]

They don't need to create interesting non white leads because they already have interesting non white leads.
For the MCU era they have Black Panther, War-Machine, Nick Fury, Shang-Chi, Photon.
From the comics they have Blade, Luke Cage (MCU too).
Just need good scripts, even great characters like Thor or Captain Marvel can crash and burn with bad scripts.

Nick Fury is interesting but it didn't help him get a better written tv show. I mean I agree the potential is their. Potential always exists because your always one great script away from having another compelling character or story to entertain the viewers. RIght now Disney though seems to have problems adjusting to the fact that it can no longer just do simple family friendly stuff as well as it did back in it's heyday.

I think one issue is Disney now exists in a world were prestige tv took off after the success of Sopranos and we even had a golden age of movies starting in the 90's. They don't know how to be edgy and sophisticated like it's rivals and it's basically gone through remaking ever Disney Princess just about and so they now basically just got Pixar and two old and aging brands like SW and the MCU and not much else.

 

[Phoenix219]

They should have done a Captain Marvel movie where she goes bad, dark phoenix style for whatever reason, she's so powerful no one can stop her, intro: the X-Men, Rogue takes her down and saps her powers, its kind of like the comic books, it would attract all sorts of people whether they liked or disliked the character, and not taken a decade to introduce the X-Men. Definitely would have been better than The Marvels.

The biggest problem is that none of the movies after Endgame are building to anything or have any cohesive structure. They just..... exist.

Some of the movies made decent box office, but were still DISLIKED by the people who saw them, and then... they stopped paying to see more. Good box office doesn't mean squat.

To think any of it has to do with ethnicity or gender is very shallow thinking. Write good characters, make good movies. We don't care who stars in them if they are good.