Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[bbjeg]

This will be a discussion thread of where the MCU has been, where it is, and what's to come but in regards to what has been seen (released) already. For example (as of now), you can only talk about Guardians of the Galaxy in reference to something already seen, like the end credits of Thor: The Dark World or the Kree in Agents of Shield, but you can't discuss the GotG movie itself until after it's released.

Items covered currently:

• Iron Man
• The Incredible Hulk
• Iron Man 2
• Thor
• Captain America: The First Avenger
• Marvel's The Avengers
• Iron Man 3
• Thor: The Dark World
• Captain America: The Winter Soldier
• Marvel One-Shots
  • The Consultant
  • A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer
  • Item 47
  • Agent Carter
  • All Hail the King
• Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Let the speculation begin!

So, recap up to Avengers; Dr. Abraham Erskine creates the super-soldier serum in the 40s and is killed by Hydra after transforming Steve Rogers who is equipped by Howard Stark. The Red Skull, Erskine's first super-soldier, obtains the Tesseract and uses it to power Hydra's arsenal. After the final battle, Red warps away and Rogers is lost.

Howard finds the Tesseract and later creates Stark Industries with Obadiah Stane, promoting innovation, and devises a powerful element, along with Anton Vanko, that could change the world but he's unable to produce it being limited by the technology of his time. Howard discovers Vanko's attempt to get rich by selling it to the wrong people and Vanko is booted off the project. Howard later helps found S.H.I.E.L.D. and meets Nick Fury. Howard passes and his genius son inherits the company.

Stane, wanting Stark Industries for himself, orders a hit on Tony. After a weapons demonstration in the middle east, Tony is captured by the Ten Rings and is ordered to make weapons for them. Tony then creates the Iron Man suit (mark I) and escapes leaving the suit in the desert. Back home, Agent Coulson, an Agent of Shield, is sent to debrief Tony but he is unable to reach him. Tony makes another suit (mark II) but due to its poor handling of high altitudes, it's set aside for a gold plated version (mark III). Tony discovers Stane's plans (or rather he's told) and after fighting and defeating Stane's power suit (which he modeled after the mark I he obtained), he confesses to the world that he's Iron Man. Nick Fury meets him.

Attempts are made to recreate the Super-soldier serum with a few being promising. Bruce Banner, believing it was more medical research, accidentally turns himself into the Hulk using Gamma radiation, and flees, expecting the government would use his findings as a weapon. General Ross fails to catch him and gives Emil Blonsky a serum that was put on ice as being incomplete. Blonsky seeking more power makes Dr. Samuel Sterns, Banner's colleague in attempting to cure him, inject him with Banner's blood turning him into the Abomination. Blonsky leaves Sterns in his destroyed lab with Banner's blood dripping on an open cut on his forehead and rampages the city. Hulk drops in, stops him, and flees. S.H.I.E.L.D., not wanting anything to do with Blonsky, hires Tony as a consultant to obtain the Abomination from Ross, which of course, Ross denies.

Tony's father's past catches up with him when Anton Vanko's son Ivan demonstrates Tony isn't so unique. Ivan is arrested but is later broken out by Justin Hammer, US's new weapons manufacturer and Tony's rival. Tony, thinking he's dying, looses what little restraint he has forcing Lt. Col. James "Rhodey" Rhodes, Tony's old friend, to steal the Mark II to use for America as the War Machine. Natasha Romanoff/Black Widow, a S.H.I.E.L.D. infiltrator, is tasked with keeping an eye on Tony and is outed by Nick Fury as they help Tony back on his feet.Tony discovers his father's equations and creates a much more powerful suit (Mark IV) and together with the War Machine, they defeat Vanko and Vanko's army of robots that Hammer produced that Vanko controlled. Hammer is arrested (and S.H.I.E.L.D. possibly gains arch technology here).

A hammer falls from the sky which has immense energy and is immovable. Agent Coulson, along with Clint Barton/Hawkeye are sent to investigate. After closing off the area, a man breaks in and get all the way to the hammer through S.H.I.E.L.D. forces but gives up when he can't lift it. Coulson decides to release him and keeps an eye on him. Later an alien, armored giant easily dispatches the few S.H.I.E.L.D. agents in his way and attacks a nearby town that happens to house Sif and the warriors three. They too are defeated and the man who broke into the shield facility before sacrifices himself to spare the town. The hammer then comes to him and he is revealed to be Thor. They all depart leaving S.H.I.E.L.D. with the knowledge of how outgunned they really are.

Steve Rogers is found and...

The Avengers happen.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Thanks for creating the thread, and those are just the ground rules I would have laid. It's good to have a place where we can freely discuss what has been released without worrying about spoiling one production in the thread of another (particularly dicey with the TWS/AoS crossover situation at the moment), but I don't want to be spoiled on future productions, so I'm glad you included that!

So be warned, those who haven't seen TWS or haven't kept up with AoS--Let the spoiling begin!

The big question between TWS and AoS is whether or not the Zola program is the Clairvoyant. From the way they described the program as working, it would be kind of a redundant concept if it isn't! OTOH, the so-called Clairvoyant could still be an individual with high security clearance and/or access to information from the Zola program (the most likely suspect ATM being Hand).

And of course, I'm wondering how the hell they're going to run the show in the post-SHIELD era without some major changes in premise. The AoS team might go on operating as an independent unit, but you need some serious resources to fuel, maintain, and operate something like the Bus. Perhaps they just come to operate directly for the U.S. government? Or Tony Stark...?

Also, in the category of something they could play on AoS that would spoil some of TWS while not telling the whole story...I'll bet that AoS will proceed on the premise that Fury is dead, thus complicating things for Coulson and potentially May (if she's been reporting to Fury but can't prove it). Viewers who haven't seen the film will think they're being spoiled, but won't know that Fury is really still alive.

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

Great post, although I personally like to include Ang Lee's Hulk in there - mainly because TIH itself doesn't directly disavow it (Leterrier said in an interview that they purposedly shot the film as a vague sequel/reboot, and it looks that way to me, too).

 

[bbjeg]

^I guess Ang Lee's Hulk counts too but in regards to the MCU, it's not really prevalent.

Post Avengers Recap:

After our heroes gather to stop Loki from unleashing the extraterrestrial race known as the Chitauri on earth, they go there separate ways. Tony discovers a new rival in A.I.M., a past acquaintance by the name of Aldrich Killian who creates Extremis, technology that unlocks superhuman characteristics. (Skipping the Mandarin) Killian attempts to take over America but is thwarted by Iron Man/Men and Iron Patriot (War Machine's new alibi).

Project Centipede, a possible offshoot of A.I.M., blends past discoveries (including Extremis and Super-soldier recreations) into test subjects including Mike Peterson. Agent Coulson and his new S.H.I.E.L.D. strike force consisting of Melinda May, an ace pilot, fighter, and weapons expert; Grant Ward, a black ops specialist; Leopold Fitz, an engineering specialist; Jemma Simmons, an agent who specializes in life sciences; and Skye, a computer hacker. Ultimately the team discovers Project Centipede is run by the Clairvoyant who is later supposedly killed by Agent Ward. Mike Peterson, who was rescued earlier, taken and trained by S.H.I.E.L.D., and lost in battle, returns as Deathlok, who's enhanced by machines funded by Ian Quinn, a millionaire always looking for something to exploit and the newest recruit by the Clairvoyant.

Steve Rogers tries to make a life for himself as a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent and uncovers Hydra's infiltration of S.H.I.E.L.D. along with Arnim Zola, the Red Skull's top scientist. To uncover their plot, Black Widow reveals all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s secrets resulting in S.H.I.E.L.D. and Hydra's dispansion.

 

[Kemaiku]

* ?? weeks before the Avengers, a SHIELD team in the arctic circle investigating a possible 0-8-4 discover the remains of the Hydra control vessel Valkyrie and the body of Captain Rodgers. After he is thawed (overseen by Coulson post-Thor encounter) and recovered, he escapes to see current day New York 3 weeks before the Battle of New York.

* Doctor Erik Selvig works with Banner during the earlier days of his research into the supersoldier serum, but loses contact presumably around the time of the gamma exposure. He leaves whatever research he was into around this time to follow Jane's work into wormhole theory. Takes part in the Thor encounter, then is hired by SHIELD to work on Project P.E.G.A.S.U.S. at the NASA Zero-G facility while under Loki's influence.

* Loki being found by Thanos and his Trickster Staff enbued with a Tesseract powered stone.

* Black Widow and Hawkeyes backstories.

* Asgard history/Infinity Stones/etc

 

[trekkiebaggio]

And of course, I'm wondering how the hell they're going to run the show in the post-SHIELD era without some major changes in premise. The AoS team might go on operating as an independent unit, but you need some serious resources to fuel, maintain, and operate something like the Bus. Perhaps they just come to operate directly for the U.S. government? Or Tony Stark...?

I could see a few possibilities.

1. SHIELD is 'rebooted' as more of a government controlled agency, so Coulson and his team still have missions from them but also don't quite trust their new superiors.

2. They become an independent team and they are the only remnants of SHIELD, so it's their job to try and root out whatever remains of HYDRA.

3. A new agency is set up but it's completely different and Coulson etc are outlaws.

I tend to think it'll be something that leads to them being a team on their own without having a larger force to call upon. I don't think they're going to find out all the secrets by the end of the season though, so there's still going to be plenty for them to investigate.

At the same time I can't believe SHIELD is really gone for good I mean, all the agents, all the the new recruits that are in training, all the money the government has spent into building the helicarriers etc, surely that's not just all going to be wiped away in one fell swoop?

What's also interesting is that fact that Black Widow uploaded all the SHIELD files to the net. Do those include things about Skye and Coulson or did Fury make sure certain files were protected no matter what?

Since HYDRA has its roots in SHEILD and given what's happened in recent episodes of AoS, it seems there's at least one traitor on board the bus. Who? Who could have been working with a different agenda this whole season?

 

[bbjeg]

...
I'm wondering how the hell they're going to run the show in the post-SHIELD era without some major changes in premise. The AoS team might go on operating as an independent unit, but you need some serious resources to fuel, maintain, and operate something like the Bus. Perhaps they just come to operate directly for the U.S. government? Or Tony Stark...?

I think it will become the A-Team in the Marvel Universe, at least for now.

Also, in the category of something they could play on AoS that would spoil some of TWS while not telling the whole story...I'll bet that AoS will proceed on the premise that Fury is dead, thus complicating things for Coulson and potentially May (if she's been reporting to Fury but can't prove it). Viewers who haven't seen the film will think they're being spoiled, but won't know that Fury is really still alive.

It would be neater if Fury calls Coulson to drop him off somewhere (being that Fury trusts him), answering all his questions along the way.

 

[bbjeg]

...
Since HYDRA has its roots in SHEILD and given what's happened in recent episodes of AoS, it seems there's at least one traitor on board the bus. Who? Who could have been working with a different agenda this whole season?

I think it's Ward but I also think that's not Ward. It's a stretch but in CA:TWS, Black Widow disguises herself as a counsel member so the technology exists.

 

[trekkiebaggio]

...
Since HYDRA has its roots in SHEILD and given what's happened in recent episodes of AoS, it seems there's at least one traitor on board the bus. Who? Who could have been working with a different agenda this whole season?

I think it's Ward but I also think that's not Ward. It's a stretch but in CA:TWS, Black Widow disguises herself as a counsel member so the technology exists.

And even if it is it doesn't mean that Ward (or notWard) is the only spy.

Do you think there's a clear point in time when he could have been replaced or do you think it just happened off-screen at any point in the last few episodes?

 

[Eduardo]

Great post, although I personally like to include Ang Lee's Hulk in there - mainly because TIH itself doesn't directly disavow it (Leterrier said in an interview that they purposedly shot the film as a vague sequel/reboot, and it looks that way to me, too).

There are a lot of contradictions between Hulk and TIH, and it is clearly not considered a part of the MCU. Just a couple:

- The personality of General Ross, his involvement in Bruce's experiments, etc.
- Bruce Banner wasn't really Bruce Banner in HULK, but was adopted and with a different last name.
- How the Hulk accident happens, the TIH sequence shows Banner experimenting on himself while HULK shows Banner protecting a coworker in front of someone during an equipment malfunction.
- The origins of the Hulk's powers, a militray backed program working to achieve a new super soldier serum (without Bruce's knowing) vs the rogue genetic experiments of Banner Sr.
- IIRC, Betty's first time seeing the Hulk transformation was in the university incident, she hasn't seen it before.

And there is a big contradiction coming up on Agents of SHIELD, but I am not sure I can mention it due to the thread rules (but there have been promos for it).

 

[Emperor-Tiberius]

The credits sequence in TIH can be easily explained as a quick what-happened-inbetween-Hulk-and-TIH -- Bruce came back, started working on the serom, tried to experiment again, to remove it, but unfortunately didn't succeed resulting to Betty's accident and him going away again. Its not that radical a thinking, unless you want it to be.

And Ross's personality? He's a douche in both films. And the Hulk experiment can be seen as a result of the serum as it was illegally experimented upon by Banner Sr. The only one contradiction you mentioned that I concur with is Bruce's name - but that, given the Greek tragedy the original was, I attributed to take his original name, to become whole again.

Point being, if one wants to allow Hulk to be part of the MCU, won't find that many contradictions, and in my opinion, enriches the experience, as we see Banner through various stages of repression, anger and finally acceptance.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think it will become the A-Team in the Marvel Universe, at least for now.

That would definitely stretch credibility if they don't have some sort of parent agency or wealthy benefactor. The Bus is too much a part of the show to drop (I hope), and it would require a little more in the way of resources and infrastructure than a van would. They shouldn't even be able to fly around in and land that thing without some sort of authority behind them.

Another item that somebody mentioned in one of the other threads that bears repeating here...the similarities between the Zola bunker in TWS and the TAHITI facility in AoS. It was a bit conspicuous when they specified that the TAHITI facility dated back to the WWII era. A relationship between the two seems likely.

 

[Turtletrekker]

And there is a big contradiction coming up on Agents of SHIELD, but I am not sure I can mention it due to the thread rules (but there have been promos for it).

And it is something that has been openly discussed in the AoS thread. OK, it's just a casting spoiler. I'll break protocol.

The irreconcilable difference between Ang Lee's Hulk and the MCU is...

Spoiler: Character who appeared in Hulk and appearing soon on AoS

Glenn Talbot. A former military officer who was killed off in Lee's movie, will soon be appearing as an alive and well current military officer in AoS.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I'd think that like any thread, future spoilers might be sprinkled in with the use of spoiler code, but it's bbjeg's thread....

 

[DEWLine]

I can't see SHIELD being completely shut down in the wake of the Insight Disaster and the Romanov Infodump. Reorganized, yes. Shut down, no.

As for the infodump, Fury would have had provisions to hold certain Key Secrets - which we will learn about in future TV shows and movies - back from the public. But he will have infodump strategies set up for those too, if he decides that's what's best for world security.

I suspect that Coulson's crew are going to lose the Bus in the near future, but not their cars. And if they can recover Skye's van, there'll be that as well. But if they want to trick the van out to fly like Lola (and, I suspect, the standard-issue SUV as well), they're going to need access to qualified and willing mechanics. That could take a while.

 

[bbjeg]

I did say in regards to what has been seen (released) already, so trailers for the next episode counts as well as the Marvel Studios: Assembling a Universe special that was released, so Talbot is open to speculate about.

...
Since HYDRA has its roots in SHEILD and given what's happened in recent episodes of AoS, it seems there's at least one traitor on board the bus. Who? Who could have been working with a different agenda this whole season?

I think it's Ward but I also think that's not Ward. It's a stretch but in CA:TWS, Black Widow disguises herself as a counsel member so the technology exists.

And even if it is it doesn't mean that Ward (or notWard) is the only spy.

Do you think there's a clear point in time when he could have been replaced or do you think it just happened off-screen at any point in the last few episodes?

It happened to Bashir.

I want to say on his way back from inspecting the cleared prison. It's odd no one was there (and the coffee behind the window was still hot) but the episode continued without explaining it. That would mean Antoine Triplett is the double agent though in other threads I also expressed that if Ward is the double agent, Triplett would replace him.

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think it likely that Ward was taking orders from somebody with authority who was working for the other side. But the potential for his having been replaced in a seemingly-abandoned prison is a consideration.

 

[Eduardo]

Which reminds me, we still have that alien equation that the Clairvoyant wanted to deal with

 

[The Old Mixer]

Maybe Skye can solve it...maybe it's code for the music of "All Along the Watchtower"....

FWIW, somebody posted in the TWS thread that USA Today has a story about the direction that AoS will be taking in its last six episodes of the season. The team will be operating on its own, and it looks like TV viewers will be massively spoiled about the main twist in TWS.

 

[bbjeg]

^I read the non-spoiler spoiler, if you want to be surprised watching the next episode, avoid it.