Spoilers Marvel Cinematic Universe spoiler-heavy speculation thread

[Christopher]

I miss the day when people used the correct terms and differentiated between reshoots and pick ups. I really do.

Oh, good point.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pick-up_(filmmaking)

In filmmaking, a pick-up is a small, relatively minor shot filmed or recorded after the fact to augment footage already shot. When entire scenes are redone, it is referred to as a re-shoot or additional photography.

It seems like it's more a difference of degree than anything else, though. Reshoots are more likely to be reworkings or replacements of existing scenes, but they could just be new versions of existing scenes that didn't quite work for some reason (an extreme example being a reshoot to replace an actor, like in that movie where they replaced Kevin Spacey with Christopher Plummer). And post-principal photography could include both major reshoots and minor pick-ups.

Also, as people pointed out already.... Refilming any part of the movie doesn't mean that what they had was bad. It just means that during editing they realized that something wasn't working. Or maybe it did, but the writer/producer/director suddenly had an idea that might work better and deliver a better end product.

Or it could mean that what they had was bad, but they figured out how to make it better. There's nothing wrong with that. There's a saying that the first draft is always bad and it's editing that makes it good. That's an exaggeration, but there's some truth to it. Nothing is perfect right out of the gate. There's no shame in making a mistake, as long as you fix it.

 

[Booji]

I wonder if the Ant-Man films just aren't appealing enough in general to bring people in over lackluster trailers and bad reviews at this point.

I think this has a lot to do with it. Ant-Man, a C level character, has been in 3 solo movies and has had 2 major guest appearances. That's a lot of screen time for a character whose movies never really hit out of the park $ wise. In regards to this particular character, people don't seem to care all that much.

 

[Mage]

Or it could mean that what they had was bad, but they figured out how to make it better. There's nothing wrong with that. There's a saying that the first draft is always bad and it's editing that makes it good. That's an exaggeration, but there's some truth to it. Nothing is perfect right out of the gate. There's no shame in making a mistake, as long as you fix it.

Exactly! I'd rather a movie is delayed for a while and have something that's great that something mediocre because of deadlines.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

If it is considered a failure, it is because people have much higher expectations for the MCU than they did pre-pandemic.

Or, a series has run long past its shelf life of creative viability.

 

[Christopher]

I think this has a lot to do with it. Ant-Man, a C level character, has been in 3 solo movies and has had 2 major guest appearances. That's a lot of screen time for a character whose movies never really hit out of the park $ wise. In regards to this particular character, people don't seem to care all that much.

That doesn't follow. If the character had been that unpopular, I doubt they would've made three solo movies about him.

 

[kirk55555]

But isn't Subscribing to Disney+ giving Disney money? Anyway I will wait until it is on Disney+ to watch it and will get it on 4k disc because I am a completist.

Its not about not giving Disney money in general for me, all the various studios and services employ bad people, its about not directly giving money to specific projects starring people like Lily. A viewing on D+ might technically be a positive thing for the film, but its much less so then actually paying for a ticket. I have D+ anyway, so it makes sense to use it for a film like Ant-Man 3.

I think this has a lot to do with it. Ant-Man, a C level character, has been in 3 solo movies and has had 2 major guest appearances. That's a lot of screen time for a character whose movies never really hit out of the park $ wise. In regards to this particular character, people don't seem to care all that much.

The MCU can definitely take lesser known characters and make them into mainstream successes, everyone from GOTG all the way to Iron Man himself show that, but Ant-Man never seemed to reach that level. A lot of people seem to like Ant-Man, but no one really seems to love him, or at least don't particularly love his movies.

 

[Rich Watson]

Simu Liu says Shang-Chi will be back sooner than you think. I'm guessing in "The Marvels" given the hints that Kamala's bangle and the Ten Rings are both Celestial technology.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/shang-chi-simu-liu-marvel-team-up-1235334517/

 

[Caretaker]

I wonder if part of the problem is that with Phase Four, unless you paid attention to the Internet speculation, it wasn't as clear where the MCU was headed. Maybe people's need for everything spelled-out has destroyed their ability to reason together the seemingly disparate parts and connections.

Sorry - that's just the cynic in me about (modern) audiences.

 

[Christopher]

I wonder if part of the problem is that with Phase Four, unless you paid attention to the Internet speculation, it wasn't as clear where the MCU was headed. Maybe people's need for everything spelled-out has destroyed their ability to reason together the seemingly disparate parts and connections.

Why did it have to be headed somewhere? Even if it was, people forget that the journey is more important than the destination. Phase Four wasn't about barrelling forward to the next big thing; it was about expanding outward, diversifying, introducing new characters and facets of the universe. It was a return to the storytelling style of Phase One, where the emphasis wasn't on how the pieces connected but just on putting the various pieces into play, letting us get to know them and their stories individually. Except that this time, the title characters weren't all white men.

People forget that what made the MCU work was the strength of the films as standalones. The crossover elements were an extra layer added onto that, only occasionally taking center stage rather than defining the whole thing.

 

[eschaton]

Why did it have to be headed somewhere? Even if it was, people forget that the journey is more important than the destination. Phase Four wasn't about barrelling forward to the next big thing; it was about expanding outward, diversifying, introducing new characters and facets of the universe. It was a return to the storytelling style of Phase One, where the emphasis wasn't on how the pieces connected but just on putting the various pieces into play, letting us get to know them and their stories individually. Except that this time, the title characters weren't all white men.

People forget that what made the MCU work was the strength of the films as standalones. The crossover elements were an extra layer added onto that, only occasionally taking center stage rather than defining the whole thing.

In retrospect, as well recieved as it was, I feel Civil War is where the MCU began losing it's way. It's the first MCU film that didn't work properly as a standalone - or at worst a sequel to the other films within the series of the ostensible lead. You really need to have seen Ultron and the Iron Man movies for full enjoyment.

 

[Christopher]

I don't think it's a matter of losing its way. Not every difference has to be a value judgment. My point is that the MCU has room for both self-contained stories and interconnected narratives. The problem is that people assume it has to be only one or the other, instead of a healthy mix of both.

 

[Rich Watson]

In retrospect, as well recieved as it was, I feel Civil War is where the MCU began losing it's way. It's the first MCU film that didn't work properly as a standalone - or at worst a sequel to the other films within the series of the ostensible lead. You really need to have seen Ultron and the Iron Man movies for full enjoyment.

Except that Infinity War and Endgame are two of the top 10 most successful films ever, so people didn't have a problem following them.

The issue that I see is that they've lost half the actors people used to care about. Who are even going to be the Avengers in the next two movies? Ant-Man? Well we know how his move into the big leagues (pun possibly intended) worked out. A bunch of second-raters from the Disney+ shows?

 

[1987SpaceGuy]

People forget that what made the MCU work was the strength of the films as standalones. The crossover elements were an extra layer added onto that, only occasionally taking center stage rather than defining the whole thing.

Well said and spot on IMO.

 

[Christopher]

The issue that I see is that they've lost half the actors people used to care about. Who are even going to be the Avengers in the next two movies?

The new actors that people care about, of course. The reason people cared about the old actors is that they liked their movies. Obviously it is possible to care about the new people too, if you like the new movies and shows they appeared in. I for one look forward to seeing more of Anthony Mackie, Florence Pugh, Simu Liu, Awkwafina, Benedict Wong, Gemma Chan, Hailee Steinfeld, Iman Vellani, Tatiana Maslany, and others.

A bunch of second-raters from the Disney+ shows?

Iron Man and Thor were considered second-raters before the MCU made them stars. The Guardians of the Galaxy were maybe fourth-raters. The problem with the argument that only established characters matter is that it forgets that the established characters were new to the audience once.

 

[JD]

The issue that I see is that they've lost half the actors people used to care about. Who are even going to be the Avengers in the next two movies? Ant-Man? Well we know how his move into the big leagues (pun possibly intended) worked out. A bunch of second-raters from the Disney+ shows?

I think the new line up will most likely be:

Definite
Dr. Strange
Hulk
Ant-Man
The Wasp
Capt. Marvel
Shang-Chi
Captain America/Sam Wilson
Black Panther/Shuri
One of the Hawkeyes, but I'm honestly not sure which, and now after what happened to Jeremy Renner that's even more of an open question now
Maybe
Yelena Belova (not sure if she's officially Black Widow now) - she's also in Thunderbolts, so I'm not sure if she'll be on both teams
She-Hulk
Ms. Marvel
Monica Rambeau (not sure if she'll also be Capt. Marvel or Photon)
Winter Soldier - is also on Thunderbolts, so like Yelena, I'm not sure if he'll be on both teams

 

[theenglish]

I agree with you Avengers line up minus Hawkeye. I think though that the MCU is setting up three separate teams: Avengers, Thunderbolts, and Young Avengers. Plenty of team space for all the characters. I think She-Hulk might just remain unattached to a team, acting as the lawyer for super-heroes instead. I am curious as to where Monica will end up though.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

I agree with you Avengers line up minus Hawkeye. I think though that the MCU is setting up three separate teams: Avengers, Thunderbolts, and Young Avengers. Plenty of team space for all the characters. I think She-Hulk might just remain unattached to a team, acting as the lawyer for super-heroes instead. I am curious as to where Monica will end up though.

Yep. There are clearly multiple teams on the way. In fact, you can probably add the Midnight Suns to the list. Blade, Jack Russell, Ted, Elsa Bloodstone, Moon Knight, maybe Echo, maybe a new Ghost Rider and possibly featuring appearances by Agatha Harkness, Dr. Strange or Wong.

 

[JoeZhang]

If more of these films underperform they will back a truck of money to the houses of Chris Evans and RDjr and work out the story later.

 

[Christopher]

Yelena Belova (not sure if she's officially Black Widow now) - she's also in Thunderbolts, so I'm not sure if she'll be on both teams

Wasn't Wolverine on, like, every team simultaneously for a while?

 

[FPAlpha]

That doesn't follow. If the character had been that unpopular, I doubt they would've made three solo movies about him.

He was not unpopular i think, just not very well pushed by Marvel Comics. I have read a run ages ago that introduced Scott Lang i believe as the new Ant Man and how he came to be Ant Man and he was a thief and also used his power to peek at women in the shower amongst other things. It was funny as hell and against the general superhero type which made it interesting.

One could argue that Tony Stark/ Iron Man had been a B Lister in the comics for a while and that it was a gamble to start the MCU with him instead of Captain America, Thor or Hulk that were much better known at the time but it all worked out.

I don't know if MCU Ant Man was designed to provide the pivotal story point for Endgame that far in advance but it looks like he's doing it again ( haven't seen it yet, wanted to go last Saturday but private emergency prevented it) and the MCU does have the tendency to bend a story to fit the overall narrative, sometimes to the detriment of the movie itself.